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Post by mari on Dec 11, 2009 14:29:14 GMT -5
If it happened that we get some trolls who want to insert themselves in an otherwise adult, rational conversation I do like your definition and topics of 'reasonable, rational adult conversation'. ;D (Over-analyzing of possible TV show over-analyzing, yay! ;D) |
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Post by mari on Dec 12, 2009 5:37:23 GMT -5
(*aside to Mari: BWAHAHAHAH!! I did it again! I first called it a "floggin" of eggnog, just proving once more that when pressed by sensory overload of such beauty and joy, and a word in the local language just isn't sufficient -- a whole new word comes to the world to be added to the lexicon!! ;D ;D ;D) (wasn't alcohol involved the first time, too?  ) I’m going to drink a floggin of Glühwein in honor of your language creativity. (Must be a really bad day if it includes floggin flagons… (Hope you could enjoy one, two tiny, advocaat-chocolate along with it) So if fic came up, fine, but it might be good to keep it separate from a dissection of the show. I totally understanding yours and everyone’s reasoning on this… but on the other hand I’m fascinated by the meta-level of how fic writers see the show… (And what’s the ratio of the fans who go online just to discuss the show and those who also read fic?) Or, on a more basic level, things like when you mention fans mistaking fictional characters for real people… I don’t know the specific cases you’re talking about but not sure if that’s it or more a general inability to accept more than one truth even for a fictional universe… (Whatever the line (and mix) between the both attitudes is) Finally yes I would contribute and I agree you are more likely to pick up new members at this proposed new forum but I do worry that it would kill off more traffic here  . You point out something that we discussed back when Shy (I think) suggested to set up BBWW for DA at FFnet and in the end, yes, I guess it did to some degree. But it also brought some new people in. Infighting -- not overall, no -- but the majority of the membership doesn't want to engage in that sort of deconstruction, so there are complaints when the darker or less fuzzy moments are discussed. Again, I’m a complete ignorant of the NCIS fan scene… but never would have occurred to me that people wouldn’t want to discuss all parts of the show or avoid the darker parts in particular. (What a difference to DA with the generally darker, after-apocalyptic setting) I assume they might be seeing NCIS as a show with an entertaining team that’s not really affected by all the death people around (or something in that direction?)… but the occasional more serious parts are just what makes the rest fun to me. Don’t know about the Ziva controversies either so won’t start rambling on that… The Forum set up -- and especially the e-mails sent directly to you -- make it more likely that those who read want to read Hm, hadn’t thought of it as a matter of forum set up (maybe because not using the most recent post-function the first years of reading here). Maybe I’m too cynic, but always thought of it as a matter of the people who use a forum (or are allowed to dominate it), whether the general spirit is accepting and open-minded. I get your point that people wouldn’t have to read what they don’t like …. I just don’t think the people who mess things up have the decency of leaving people alone. Anyway, just general pessimism about general people and no specific references to NCIS fans or objection to a FFnet forum. After all, as you pointed out, whoever runs the forum has the power of the kicking boot… (Grinned at your idea of a separate kindergarten thread for stupid people ;D) |
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Post by shywriter on Dec 12, 2009 13:02:42 GMT -5
Announcing a new forum ::subtle drumroll:: NCIS Dissected I threw out a description and a few topics to get the ball rolling but please feel free to add, comment, gripe, correct, etc. Will be interesting to see if anyone nibbles. (Hope you could enjoy one, two tiny, advocaat-chocolate along with it) Very happily, I have many days' chocolate supply ahead! ;D (with thanks to my supplier!) I would hope that if we find those who want to discuss the show who also write fanfic, we could add those discussions, too -- just trying first to have the comments more oriented to the show and less to fic. Of course, fic writers commenting on the show would be the same as if anyone commented; fic writers commenting on what the show is doing to fic, for example, just gets a separate thread. I'm probably talking a fine line here, and maybe trying to find a nice way to say that some of those who don't want "negativity" discussed seem to be as protective of a character as they would be if the character was a real person -- the difference, say, between saying "the way Tony was written in episode (whatever) was inconsistent with everything else they developed for him that season," and saying "Tony would never do that!!!" Granted, in "shorthand" you could use the second phrase and mean the first -- but at least places I've seen, the level of protectiveness for a character is as if they are flesh and blood, and really working there in DC, at NCIS  ... Both points are valid and correct -- but I believe we lost more people here about other issues than we did by starting BBWW. (It was pretty well after BBWW began, wasn't it, when those who wanted to have A.l.e.c and S.2 allowed within the M/L world -- and who didn't like the bizarre censor-filter here -- became frustrated and signed off?) To be fair, the recent complaints that I saw about discussing darker stuff was about those raising the discussion of Ziva's torture and likely rape -- but in a TIVA "shipper" thread. I can see that those interested in a TIVA thread might not want such grim things discussed there -- but even with requests, there as been no offering for a place to discuss the things I have put in the forum (maybe more frustrating -- one new thread was created, but in the NCIS:LA section, not NCIS -- and it was called a "complaint" thread, just underscoring a distaste for this sort of discussion.) Clearly, it's not reasonable for a few to come and try to foist on everyone a darker, less fangirl discussion about the show, but I would have liked to see the discussion continue. So ... I stuck my nose in and found a forum. ;D ...and with that, I hope you all come stick your nose in too! Come sound off; it would be great to have some discussion going there too! |
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Post by shywriter on Dec 12, 2009 13:35:49 GMT -5
Yay! Our very first member!!Lovely door prizes for our first brave soul (you know who you are...! ;D ;D) 
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Post by mari on Dec 12, 2009 14:03:20 GMT -5
Yay!  (And wow, thanks for all the set-up work!) Love the title and great, interesting set-up questions / topics. ;D ;D Are you going to advertise anywhere… or not because increasing the chances of attracting idiots along with the nice people? I'm probably talking a fine line here, and maybe trying to find a nice way to say that some of those who don't want "negativity" discussed seem to be as protective of a character as they would be if the character was a real person -- the difference, say, between saying "the way Tony was written in episode (whatever) was inconsistent with everything else they developed for him that season," and saying "Tony would never do that!!!" Granted, in "shorthand" you could use the second phrase and mean the first -- but at least places I've seen, the level of protectiveness for a character is as if they are flesh and blood, and really working there in DC, at NCIS ... Oh yes, definitely. (I had this feeling that I just didn’t really get your point, so should have shut up in first place  ) And with that, interesting to read about the ‘complaint’-thread, as if the show was something not to be criticized… it has a lot of idolizing the show (or fangirling?) and I guess that’s a mindset that just doesn’t go along with ‘dissecting’… or collecting WTF-moments. ;D (And I wonder if this has any equivalent parts in books and reading) Yay! Our very first member!!Lovely door prizes for our first brave soul (you know who you are...! ;D ;D) You don’t happen to talk about a person who had the best intentions (and ideas and all) to write DA Christmas fic this weekend? Will shut up here and try get started with obsessing somewhere over there… (Just where to start…lots of ideas and a geeky thought that might be too touchy even for there. Or two actually. )
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Post by shywriter on Dec 12, 2009 14:29:12 GMT -5
Yay! (And wow, thanks for all the set-up work!) It was fun, and I wanted to do it, even though I got up at 10 AM rather than 5 AM as planned, have (literally) 20 hours of office work I had hoped to do this weekend and two DA Christmas stories to write, along with hitting a local Christmas sale this afternoon... Priorities, priorities... Would like to but am not sure where would be appropriate; I don't feel as if I ought to on Special Ops because I'm afraid it might be perceived as a way to draw people away from that board (as dzero mentioned for us here -- and we're not even a NCIS board!) I might also if I had been more of a regular but never have exactly been too active with or included by that group... Any ideas? Maybe on LJ? That was sort of the 'aha' moment for me, seeing that in the whole of all those who want to animatedly discuss the show, part (the majority of Special Ops, I think) want to take the light approach, see pretty people hook up and say cute lines. Now, I certainly like that part of the show too, but love psychoanalyzing what the writers have thrown out even more. It's what we've had fun doing with DA -- trying to figure out why they had Logan or Max say some particular line -- did the writers have a deep, profound meaning or was it just a cast off, lazy line that the fangirls have pounced on? Just like all my plans, above ....  No need to shut up but glad you have some thoughts -- and I don't think anything is too touchy; it was why I kept emphasizing the idea of 'adult' conversation. They may have a "suitable for teens" rating, but as all of this is a part of a primetime, network show (if only by implication) it should be fair game for this forum. Woo-hoo! |
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Post by shywriter on Dec 12, 2009 14:33:26 GMT -5
Two Three members now!  Our cup runneth over... ;D Come on, the rest of you! All the cool kids are there... |
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Post by Mr.Clark on Dec 12, 2009 18:31:47 GMT -5
So I really don't know where to put this but I suppose this is as good a place as any and I can be assured it gets at least a casual glance and maybe a response. One of the things I do daily is read International security blogs, helps with my chosen field of study. One of the things I stumbled across in one of these is a blog written by Steven Pressfield a very successful and talented author of books the best known of which is probably The Gates of Fire. Much of his blog covers contemporary military subjects, quite a bit is centered on the Af/Pak conflict. In addition to this though there is a section where he blogs about his writing endeavors and issues relating too it. I figure maybe some of the amatuer novelists in the crowd might find it interesting or maybe its a bit too hardcore for the casual author. Either way here is a link to his blog: Writing Wednesdays . |
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Post by shywriter on Dec 12, 2009 19:11:33 GMT -5
In addition to this though there is a section where he blogs about his writing endeavors and issues relating too it. I figure maybe some of the amatuer novelists in the crowd might find it interesting or maybe its a bit too hardcore for the casual author. Either way here is a link to his blog: Writing Wednesdays . Thanks for posting this! I read his latest couple entries and was glad I did; his last was reflecting on why writers write -- one of those interesting topics. I'm always interested to know not only why people write, but with the professionals, how they have the courage to attempt to sell their work, and how they wouldn't be crushed to see hundreds of copies of their books, once even the best of sales cool, stacked in "DirtCheap" stores at 25 cents a copy. As an aside from this -- WARNING, geeky over-analysis ahead -- writing, like acting and singing, is something accessible to everyone and ought to be practiced by only a very few. Unlike playing an instrument, which takes at the very least some weeks/months/years to acheive any recognizable sound or tune -- anyone can get up, open up his mouth and start to sing ... ... which is how some of the meanest "reality" shows have made it on to TV for audiences who love seeing someone get up in front of everyone and bomb, terribly. So what is this about writing? Is it different for those who write because they love to weave a story about things of interest to them? Do some people do it for attention? To release their demons? To hope they'll achieve fame and glory? Is a whack at fanfic like a kid practicing with his band in his dad's garage, or like every junior high kid thinking they'll be good enough to play in the NBA in just a couple years? Hmmm... |
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Post by Mr.Clark on Dec 12, 2009 19:54:38 GMT -5
Thanks for posting this! I read his latest couple entries and was glad I did; his last was reflecting on why writers write -- one of those interesting topics. I'm always interested to know not only why people write, but with the professionals, how they have the courage to attempt to sell their work, and how they wouldn't be crushed to see hundreds of copies of their books, once even the best of sales cool, stacked in "DirtCheap" stores at 25 cents a copy. No problem, after giving it a more thorough look through it seems like a very interesting discussion. I'm ashamed to admit I've only read one of Mr. Pressfield's books so far, despite the fact that it seems to be one of his lesser works its one of my favorite books I've read in the last 5 years. After looking at his blog its becoming clear that the man is extremely bright with an exceptional ability for self assessment that provides some interesting opinions on his craft, and I'm not even a writer. As far as your questions I couldn't begin to answer as I've never tried to really create anything, so I'll pass on positing an opinion. Despite the fact that I find things like plot, narrative and character development fascinating I don't have an original or creative bone in my body. I've long felt if I were ever to attempt writing anything it would have to be speech writing or journalism, then again there but for the grace of God go I. |
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Post by mari on Dec 13, 2009 6:09:12 GMT -5
Hm, LJ sounds like a good place for advertising with the way it is set up by many overlapping circles of communities, less fixed than other boards… want to take the light approach, see pretty people hook up and say cute lines. This is pretty much the definition of a soap opera… and I guess most shows can be consumed as a soap opera, even if they’re not. (And I never could get into the real, cheap kind of soap operas. With all the talking about the characters being fictional, if I watch a show I don’t want to cringe over an actor stiffly delivering a line (pretty people or not) but the illusion of a real person) Also, if people watch the show with the expectations one has for a soap opera – going on forever and going in circles without really much change – this kind of fits into the discussion on character development we had some weeks back. I guess in part we had the same in Dark Angel (to the extreme of literally making it a high school drama in some fics), as some have pointed out Max and A. being hooked up because they’re both so hot. And with NCIS, wouldn’t one thing both groups have in common be that both focus more on the team and their relationships than on the crimes and cases? How many people watch NCIS for the suspense of the cases? It's what we've had fun doing with DA -- trying to figure out why they had Logan or Max say some particular line -- did the writers have a deep, profound meaning or was it just a cast off, lazy line that the fangirls have pounced on? And then the next step, fantasizing about the possibilities even if the writer’s didn’t mean something to have a deep profound meaning… No need to shut up but glad you have some thoughts -- and I don't think anything is too touchy; it was why I kept emphasizing the idea of 'adult' conversation. They may have a "suitable for teens" rating, but as all of this is a part of a primetime, network show (if only by implication) it should be fair game for this forum. Thanks, good to know, but with this one thing I’ll maybe consult you before making it a public discussion topic. And man, now the writer's question, you're throwing out things faster than my poor little brain can follow and I want to ramble on all of them. Need a list. ;D |
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Post by shywriter on Dec 13, 2009 12:04:15 GMT -5
Two Three Four members now! (insert the Count from Sesame Street cackling appropriately here! ;D) This is pretty much the definition of a soap opera… and I guess most shows can be consumed as a soap opera, even if they’re not. (And I never could get into the real, cheap kind of soap operas. With all the talking about the characters being fictional, if I watch a show I don’t want to cringe over an actor stiffly delivering a line (pretty people or not) but the illusion of a real person) Funny you picked that up too; 'soap opera' has kept crossing my mind for the week or two I've been stewing about all this, with viewers wanting to watch the characters and their dramas without much thought to anything more than skin deep... (of course, that's some mighty fine skin!) Some of us just like to look a little deeper, maybe? Seems so -- at most, I think we see an occasional gripe (sometimes louder than others) about something that just doesn't make sense, implying that otherwise the plot is tolerated but not the main reason for the viewer to be watching. It seems to be much rarer that someone says they liked the plot, especially in recent years. I'm sure there are those out there who will disagree and say they like and/or watch for the plot lines, but as far as I know, they have a dead Marine (okay, sometimes dead petty officer) in each ep -- and the guilty party by the end. Works for me! ;D More necessary when you have only two seasons one good season, as opposed to seven? (Besides, that's different anyway; we all know that Max and Logan are real! ;D) |
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Post by dzero on Dec 13, 2009 15:31:58 GMT -5
How many people watch NCIS for the suspense of the cases? Just me apparently , while I do like the characters and enjoy their interplay I think all my favorite episodes featured only a little of the characters in the background, not those eps where their personal lives are at the forefront. |
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Post by shywriter on Dec 13, 2009 17:34:31 GMT -5
How many people watch NCIS for the suspense of the cases? Just me apparently , while I do like the characters and enjoy their interplay I think all my favorite episodes featured only a little of the characters in the background, not those eps where their personal lives are at the forefront. Oh, cool. So then -- are the plots any good?  No, seriously -- half the time I realize I've missed half the point of the show (I know, what a dummy!) But if I'm doing two or three things at once while the show's on, or am late getting back from commercials or whatever, I can't tell if they're vague or I'm vague! I guess I'm asking how you think NCIS stands up, plotwise, with other cop & crime-busting shows. Whatja think? |
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Post by mari on Dec 13, 2009 17:50:25 GMT -5
Just me apparently , while I do like the characters and enjoy their interplay I think all my favorite episodes featured only a little of the characters in the background, not those eps where their personal lives are at the forefront. Hm… I kind of half agree with that actually, I mostly prefer their routine case-solving without too much of their personal life drama. (Especially the overdramatic Gibbs flashbacks) So when you think back to an episode, do you remember it by the cases and who did it rather than the team? I think what I’m watching for is less the cases, but all the team moments, basically how they work together to solve a case. And next question, which kind of cases do you like most? The standard dead marine, the more international ones or the whacky-creative ones like in the last Halloween episode? No, seriously -- half the time I realize I've missed half the point of the show (I know, what a dummy!) But if I'm doing two or three things at once while the show's on, or am late getting back from commercials or whatever, I can't tell if they're vague or I'm vague! Ha, I do the same (like right now, NCIS actually on, the episode with Gibbs’ father), which is why I don’t really feel up to any detail NCIS discussion. (And then, for which kind of scenes do you stop whatever you’re doing beside watching? (Like the Logan scenes in DA? ;D)) (This discussion reminds me of what I used to do when reading crime stories with recurrent characters, just skipping over the parts (often the introduction or interludes) that described the crime or from the killer’s perspective etc and just read for the serial feeling of it) |
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