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Post by Ginny on Dec 5, 2002 0:41:34 GMT -5
I thoroughly enjoyed Cat Scratch Fever: the action kept moving and the suspense held. Thank you for not having Max satisfy her "heat" with that in-the-know X5, though I was about to hate her if she had. Glad that Logan saw the entire scene and that he finally decided not to "be the gentleman" in this situation. Loved Aveta's telling Max the way to solve her problem - too bad she didn't go right to Logan then!
The flashback-memories of Max serve well for us to follow her reflections and movement into a more mature character. She has to face her self-hatred - to learn to differentiate between what she was "made-to-be" and what she has "made-herself-into-being", and to appreciate that it was her decisions that has made her the better person who is loved and lovable.
Want to see Logan become stronger both as Eyes Only and as one who can direct Max into self-appreciation and maturity. He had an ongoing philosophic commentary with her about her in season 1 which moved her to reflect upon herself. This influence should continue.
Liked the development of Asha - giving alec a bit of a hard time. Appreciate alec's continuing smart-aleck remarks. Yet his character continues to mature. Well done.
Zeri is a welcome addition - not at all surprised that there is discontent among the transgenics and jealously and/or resentment about Max's devotion to Logan. Loved the reference to Lydecker. No doubt Lydecker can utilize any dissention in the ranks.
Wondering why Dr. Shankar went through Eyes Only to get the information out about the disease from the raspberries. Isn't she able to notify the "authorities" and get the information out on her own? Not that she wouldn't also inform Eyes Only/Logan, but why go through him.
Appreciate the conduct of Sketchy with regard to O.C. Good to see him doing something more than being made fun of.
Anticipating the problems of Joshua and a fair trial; of Logan being a fugitive. What can be done to prove who killed Annie? White's dead - how can he be exposed? Glad you writers can solve those questions.
Good to see Clemente showing more of his attitude toward the transgenics and the law. He's in a tight situation. Still looking for the Logan/Sung re-union.
Thanks for the season. Am sorry that we'll have to wait so long for the next new episode, but ---- hope you writers have a good Chritmas and a Happy New Year. You deserve it - you are doing an excellent job.
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Post by afanofda on Dec 5, 2002 1:30:59 GMT -5
Hi schmidty : If you're up for a quick catch up all the eps are currently available on the archives page of the VS3 site. Here's the link: www.darkangelvirtuality.com/database/archives.htmEps 5 - 8 maybe be taken off the archive in the next day or so but don't worry if you miss them they are all schedule to rerun over the month of december. a fan
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Post by catherder on Dec 5, 2002 2:55:24 GMT -5
OK, I am replying both as a reader/fan and as one of the VS3 writers. This was a controversial episode and the Story Arc Committee showed intestinal fortitude in posting it pretty much intact.
That being said, I didn't like the episode -- and I read it four times. I felt it was too dark and bitter and the characterizations were off -- too harsh. I don't think that conflict is the only way to make the characters grow.
I feel that as much as Max and Logan have been through to be together, neither of them would let an attack of raging hormones screw it up like that. Although Logan hadn't experienced Max in full heat, he knew about it (Meow) and seemed to understand what she was going through. He was certainly sympathetic.
And I felt that Max's self-loathing was out of character because of that. Why would she think she's an animal? She had opened up to Logan about her heat episodes, so why all of a sudden is she so loath to even discuss it, much less act on it? They have made love several times, so it's not like they don't know the other intimately. Logan's being supportive, not acting like he's grossed out about it. It just didn't make sense to me.
This is not to say that I didn't think it was well written. I did. I just felt the premise was bogus.
catherder
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Post by Kasman on Dec 5, 2002 6:54:29 GMT -5
I have real problems with this episode, despite the fact that I believe it was well-written. Firstly, I felt that too much was being made of the heat aspects and not enough of the surrounding drama. In addition, as a general criticism of VS3, I'm concerned that Joshua, who was a major secondary character for most of S2, is becoming more and more overlooked. IMO, the characterisations were slightly off. Logan was being incredibly supportive, in his male way, of Max. It's not like they hadn't been sexually intimate on several occasions already. Gees, sometimes guys like the woman to be aggressive . Why would Max think Logan would think she's an animal? I just don't understand. It's not like she hasn't been through heat before. Logan has seen her in heat, if not experienced it...and Logan, himself, said that he was through playing a gentleman. I also felt that Logan telling alec to "piss off" was overly harsh. These two have a growing friendship. Would you tell your friend to "piss off"? I sure wouldn't. "Beat it", or "go away", maybe, but "piss off" - never. On another note, it's nice to see Max blossoming in her role as Commander-in-Chief of TC. Her take charge demeanour when the crisis first broke was really well done. Reminded me very much of Logan in similar situations (maybe she's been learning by example). Couple of questions (sorry, it's the nitpicker in me): 1. How on earth did a sealed envelope find its way under Max's door? Does Clemente have an informer planted in TC? 2. Where did the blue tokens come from? Are the transgenics manufacturing them? What is the need for them?
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Post by Ginny on Dec 5, 2002 12:36:46 GMT -5
I wasn't happy about Max's reaction to her heat-attack, but I did not think her reaction was completely out of character. Max hates what Manticore has "tricked up inside of" her and reacts sharply to her lack of control over herself. She also seems able to accept "support" primarily from O.C. but not from either Logan or alec - as if she wants to be in emotional control of herself - the emotions were brainwashed into her as a weakness. It is easier to see and accept one's physical weakness - or when one is physically in trouble; not so easy to do so with emotions, esp. when one has been taught to suppress them as undesireable and a weakness.
True, Logan did a lot of emotional suppression also - but that was his own doing. I always thought he was trying to solve his own emotional problems, a bit of pride not of denial of having them or of thinking of his emotions as a "weakness". And he finally admitted his emotions to himself and opened up. He isn't going back but I also see his "patience" and "chivalry" as having been tried and it is time to confront Max with her behavior.
I didn't care for Max's behavior or reaction to her episode of heat, but I didn't see it as completely out of character either. (Don't know why I felt the need to repeat that!)
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Post by DarkPhanton on Dec 5, 2002 13:29:08 GMT -5
Max's reaction was not out of character, but I think it was overreacted. She does hate the Heat thing and think a lot of bad stuff about it, but not THAT much. And I would think that after they got intimate and their feelings were out on the open she would know that Logan lover her for who she is, flaws and everything and that the Heat is just another part of her that he must know and experience in order to understand and help. Of course that Max is hard headed and everything but I think in this chapter it was just extreme. And she really pissed Logan off, I also agree that it's about time Logan take charge of something and face her about their situation, I could feel in this chapter that he is already worn out so I think sometime soon he will blow up . 'Cause I mean Max really managed to piss him off this chapter, and I even think he took every thing lightly, like she avoids him all the time 'cause of the damn heat with dozens of excuses but almost give up with some guy out there...I know I would be dead crazy.
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Post by SuperBlonde on Dec 5, 2002 19:41:55 GMT -5
Okay, I've given myself a little time to let it all sink in, so now I'm going to try to put my thoughts into words.
This episode was awesome! DEFINATELY one that will stay in mind for a little while. (It had me screaming at the computer monitor in exactly the same way I screamed at the TV at the end of BBWW, lol.) There have been a lot of reviews here saying that Max was out of character, or that her reaction to being in heat was . . . a little too heavy, but I completely disagree. I think you guys hit the nail on the head.
We know how Max feels about going into heat. She made that perfectly clear in Meow, talking about how it was just one more thing that tied her to Manticore. Those periods are times when she feels that her own identity is threatened. She's no longer in control of herself, and it doesn't just disgust her. It scares the nuts out of her. We know how much she wants to fight it and win without any . . . erm, help from a member of the opposite sex. That would be giving in. She knows she's a "freak," but suddenly her own body isn't even her own to control. I can imagine how angry and hurt she was to have Aveta tell her matter-of-factly that it was "normal." Max is dealing with enough from the pressures of being in charge, and suddenly she's being reminded that no matter where she goes or what she does, her life will never truly be her own.
The fact that Max and Logan have had sex before just adds another complication. Catherder pointed out that they had made love before, but that's just my point. What Max wants to do has nothing to do with love. There's a perfect term for what she wants to do, but I can't exactly use it here, if you get my drift. Her hormones aren't going to care if it's Logan or some homeless drunk guy, and that just disgusts her more. She doesn't want to just give in and use Logan to "scratch an itch," when what she's feeling with Logan should have more to do with love than filling a biological need.
Of course she ran away afterwards. She feels that she acted "like the animal that Manticore wanted [her] to be." It didn't matter one damned bit that it had been Logan. What she had just done was, to her, completely identical to every other time she'd gone into heat, grabbed some guy, and just used him. She wasn't feeling love, just the urge to mate with something male, anything male. While she was "scratching" she probably didn't know or care who the male was. It could have been Mole and she wouldn't have given a nuts. She didn't make love with Logan, she just [censored] him.
Put yourself in her situation. You really, geniunely love someone. The whole situation is a first, something wonderful that you've never had happen before, but your life has "sucked pretty hard" in the past. Maybe your afraid that somehow, something will go wrong and you'll lose it all . . . and then you do something with them, something that should mean something, and instead it becomes completely degraded into this primal, inhuman thing. I can't say that this is how Max feels, but personally, I'd feel like I just cheapened every other time that I'd ever shared that with that person before. I'd certainly hate myself, and Max has been teetering on the edge of doing that for quite a while.
And sure Logan knew about the heat. Yes she had told him in Meow, but Logan has never seen her in heat, and suddenly he's watching her jump all over other men. Sure he's told her that she shouldn't be ashamed, but if your boyfriend told you, "I know that every now and then you're going to try to jump some other guy, but I really do love you," you're going to be a little skeptical, especially if he walks in on you, half naked, on the verge of doing something with some other guy whose name you don't even know.
And she's already worried whether or not she's going to make some terrible mistake the next time.
The closing monologue hit me the same way it hit Jerry. I've been in that situation myself, and it's very hard to love someone when they don't think they're deserving of your love. I think Logan's going to spontaneously combust soon, especially with this situation, and I hope that he realizes just how much is going on in Max's head. (I doubt he will, but maybe we'll get lucky and she'll let some of it out.)
(I'm also aching to see what kind of fall-out is going to come out of this. January is so very long away . . . )
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Post by SuperBlonde on Dec 5, 2002 20:00:54 GMT -5
lol. Got so caught up that I didn't finish . . . But anyway . . . all that said, I do have to make one last comment on Max in heat and the conflict between she and Logan. I do agree with some posters that lately it seems like there is way too much conflict between Max and Logan to seriously believe they have a shot at happily ever after. I mean, I'm glad the whole "heat issue" came up because it would have had to, and it was approached realistically here. This situation wouldn't end happily, and it would cause conflict, but I'm really aching to see those two work something out soon. I think they need another session of opening up Meow-style or they're going to burst and kill each other. I also have to say that I'm peeved at Logan. He's keeping a little secret of his own from Max. Maybe he's feeling badly about that, himself. (Is he ever going to come clean with her?) All of this mention of Lydecker has me curious. Are we going to see him tip-toeing back into TC? I mean, he always has an agenda of his own, so I doubt that he'd do what Zeri thinks if he shows back up. T'would be interesting to see what he might have up his sleeve . . . "Damn, chicks are weird." -- Great line! I'm also curious about Joshua. I mean I'll be honest and say that I'm glad you remembered. White and the familiars are gone, as is the virus, and we haven't been seeing Joshua around much. I'm glad to see that that little subplot won't be left dangling, but I'm already anticipating much sadness. Poor Joshua. He's finally going on with his life, getting over all the pain of Annie's death, and now it's all going to come back. And what's going to happen with the Jam Pony crew? And why do I have to wait until January?? lol Okay, I'm finally done . . . sorry I was so wordy . . . but hey, when you get a reaction this long from a reader, it means your stirring things up, right?
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Post by Star on Dec 5, 2002 21:08:26 GMT -5
Wow I'm in awe Superblonde - you just articulated perfectly every single thing we were trying to say about Max.
That is such a compliment in my mind - means we did something right! Thanks! ;D
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Post by Queen_Gwenyvere on Dec 5, 2002 21:11:33 GMT -5
Gotta say I'm going with Barb on this one. Thank you very much for the wonderful analysis of the episode. It's really good to know that everything we tried to get across when we wrote this ep was understood.
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Post by SuperBlonde on Dec 5, 2002 22:01:15 GMT -5
(SuperBlonde tries to hide.) Who? Me? lol, well you guys did great! I think this is the first time I've ever really felt sorry for Max. I mean, she's a strong person, and she can handle a lot, but her distress over this comes off wonderfully. I can't help but wonder what would happen the next time. I think this is my fave so far this season. I'm also curious about other people's take on Max's situation. I mean . . . I'll phrase this delicately . . . I think, for personal reasons, it was a little easier for me to understand what Max is feeling, and I wonder how it came across to everyone else. BTW, I still want to grab Max by the hair, drag her back to Logan's room and make them talk, but they're just too pig-headed for that, sigh. Oh, and I forgot to mention something. The whole way that Manticore handled the females in heat was just a little too weird. Kinda reminded me of Max's line in Female Trouble about how "Manticore's gotten its swerve on since my day." What did they do? Reward the male soldiers after a successful mission? lol. I just can't imagine how all of that stayed organized. Sounds a bit too much like one big orgy.
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Post by DarkPhanton on Dec 6, 2002 10:33:49 GMT -5
I understand what you're saying Superblonde, I can't say that I really got this while reading, shame on me I think I was just too damn angry to analyze it properly, but STILL I stick to my opinion thinking that the whole situation was overreacted, but that's just me. And about the getting her half naked with some nameless guy, this could be avoided if she had settled down with Logan from the beginning. I know when you love someone you don't want to show 'em your flaws and weakness so not to look bad and all, but this is something that's a big part of her life, after all she will experience it two to three times every year, so I think Logan not only should but has the right to experience it in order to understand and help her get through such difficult period for her. But instead, as usual, she prefers to push him away and try to handle it on her all, knowing that she is never able to without some bumps, and risk losing a wonderful relantionship with already to many conflicts because of proud. I don't know, maybe I'm just too...male.
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Post by Ginny on Dec 6, 2002 11:50:51 GMT -5
Is there such a thing as being "too .... male"? That's a rhetorical question even though I can hear the chorus response from the women!
My 2 cents about Logan's reaction to alec. True, alec and Logan were beginning to be "friends" or friendly, but Logan is a private person with his personal affairs. Even though it's general knowledge that Logan and Max love one another, Logan probably does not think it is a matter for others to comment on - esp. out loud to him. He was certainly "feeling the heat" (pardon the pun) with Max's reactions, was impatient and probably angry ---- when dear ol' alec made it his business to comment out loud. Not at all welcome! I was not at all surprised at Logan's angry reaction - and frankly, I welcome it when Logan finally blows up, though usually he blows at the wrong time or at the wrong person!
alec also though trying to become a better person either does not know his boundaries socially - or hasn't yet learned to care - and he does make remarks that he should know are going to hit his target the wrong way. Not that I don't enjoy his overt observations about what's going on - loved his question, "What do they see in you?" way back when and his remark, something to the effect that "she has you whipped" - when they were in the sewers looking for Joshua or ? in "Two".
I was glad that Logan "bit off alec's head"; good to see him "lose his cool". I was also glad he finally told Max he wasn't going to "play the gentleman" any more when she finally came to him.
alec will catch on --- eventually.
Developments are interesting, suspenseful and leave us all wanting more. It's also good that we are reacting passionately to the events: I was saying, "No ..." out loud some of the times, too. Waiting for January .... moan!
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Post by Star on Dec 6, 2002 13:30:57 GMT -5
I understand what you're saying Superblonde, I can't say that I really got this while reading, shame on me I think I was just too damn angry to analyze it properly, but STILL I stick to my opinion thinking that the whole situation was overreacted, but that's just me. And about the getting her half naked with some nameless guy, this could be avoided if she had settled down with Logan from the beginning. I know when you love someone you don't want to show 'em your flaws and weakness so not to look bad and all, but this is something that's a big part of her life, after all she will experience it two to three times every year, so I think Logan not only should but has the right to experience it in order to understand and help her get through such difficult period for her. But instead, as usual, she prefers to push him away and try to handle it on her all, knowing that she is never able to without some bumps, and risk losing a wonderful relantionship with already to many conflicts because of proud. I don't know, maybe I'm just too...male. I love your "too male" reaction to Max's behavior - you are angry that she didn't go to Logan and can't understand why she doesn't want to work it out with him. That's pretty much what jae and I were projecting as Logan's feelings towards her behavior and why we had him frustrated and somewhat angry at her. It's not easy to get inside the head of the opposite sex especially when it comes to things such as sex and relationships - your response and admission that you were angry at Max for her "overreaction" and couldn't understand her is exactly what we thought a guy might feel in that situation. It's simple to Logan - she has a "problem", he can help her with it, they are already intimate so what's the big deal? But as alec observed Max has "serious issues" - for her its not that easy.Thus the crossed wires between them once again. Just as Max never really understood why walking was such a huge issue for Logan in S1, Logan right now still doesn't really get why the heat is such a huge issue to Max. These two still have a lot to learn about each other and understand about each other and there are going to be bumps along the way.
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Post by Nicolas on Dec 7, 2002 2:43:36 GMT -5
Another great ep. I really enjoyed it and had a few laughs along the way. alecs chirps are always good.
Firstly I must comment on what Carolyn had to say. Your comments about everyone having different tastes and the writers not being able to satisfy everyone’s needs were SPOT ON. I too really enjoy the M/L saga and is one of the main if not the main reason I started watching DA (oh and Jessica Alba offcourse) and continue to follow it just to see what happens between them. However the Familiars in season 2 were also of great interest to me and like you said not everyone including yourself enjoyed that story line. Great comments
At first, while reading the ep I couldn’t understand why Max didn’t just take Logan to her room and (Ill be quite frank, because that is what she was going to do) bang his brains out. (Sorry it does seem a bit crewed). Anyway as the ep went on I began to understand why Max was pushing him away and SuperBlondes comments have made it even clearer. Well put SuperBlonde.
But (these are my personal perceptions) Max and Logan really need to talk and say what they have to say to each other, keeping things inside and not confronting them with your partner is not the way forward. Logan keeping his disability quite etc. this will only lead to trouble. Max must just accept that this is going to happen to her again and again (the heat thing) and she and Logan will need to deal with it TOGETHER. In the same vain Logan must learn to accept that he may never walk again and he AND Max will deal need to deal with this.
It would be nice to see Max and Logan sharing some happier moments together, like in Season 1 when they had their candle lit dinners and shared some thoughts and jokes. I always enjoyed those moments and it always brought a smile to my face.
But things are not getting better in TC and more and more trouble seems to be coming especially for poor old Joshua, so I think it may be some time before we see some more chilled out moments between M/L.
Thanks again to the writers and I just thought of this there have only been 9 ep so far and yet so much has happened so who knows what will happen by the time ep 22 comes along. I can hardly waite.
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