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Post by Scirta on Apr 24, 2002 4:16:11 GMT -5
scirta bangs her head into the next desk in dismay. Thanks, catherder. To actually think I didn'T get the reference to Chiparus who is a conational of mine...... Bang, bang, bang. I'll think of the archetypes, I have to rush to a seminar. And to tie in with my Bast fix that I seem to share with Forever Eyes, on May 2 there is a conference at my college on, guess what... "The many faces of Bast, the cat goddess".
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Post by Scirta on Apr 24, 2002 6:37:05 GMT -5
SM, the Bible references you dug up were great. Never thought of the angel/messenger connection and of Lazarus. A lot of the stuff we came up here would be really scary if the writers had actually intended things to come across that way. I've always seen Logan as a Prometheian figure. Not the Titan chained to the cliff or the creation of mankind part but the aspects were the son of Iapet stands up repeatedly for mankind, cheats Zeus of his sacrificial offering and steals the fire to bring it to the "downtrodden". Logan is not too different. But that is commonplace, I loved catherder's interpretation of Ra.
Since we're into the Gods and Goddesses thing here, can you think of any that are somehow crippled, even in the figurative sense - besides Hephaistos that is.
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Post by SisterMoon on Apr 24, 2002 9:44:08 GMT -5
scirta, there's a crippled king associated with the King Arthur legends. From a King Arthur website:
"The general conception of the Fisher King is that he is either very old or afflicted by some grievous wound. In the case of the latter, the injury is usually located in the generative region (the groin or thigh), but it can be manifested in the foot or heel as well, and is invariably a source of tremendous pain and agony. The original image of the Fisher King, as found in Chrétien, is of a king in perpetual torment. He is courteous and hospitable, not to mention "handsome with graying hair," but these traits are overshadowed by his awkward inability to stand. His wound in the thigh keeps him confined to a litter, much to his disgrace and ignominy.
"The Fisher King resides at the Grail Castle, an otherworld domain with the Celtic peculiarity of appearing and disappearing at any given moment. In Chrétien, Perceval is directed there by the Fisher King himself, but is unable to find it. He is just about to berate the fisherman for deceiving him when the castle suddenly appears in the distance: "Constructed of gray stone, it was square and flanked by turrets," with a "beautiful and well-situated" tower utterly beyond compare. A similar sequence of events is presented in the Didot account. Perceval is on the verge of giving up his search when a similar mysterious tower materializes before him, this time situated between two hills. In most instances the castle is only found by chance, and rarely before nightfall. Furthermore, it typically lies beyond some natural obstacle, a river, forest, or range of mountains, all of which supports the notion that the castle, like its host, is enshrouded by some enchantment (the Fisher King mystique). Evidently it is not situated in any particular place; or if it is, it is not always visible to mortal eyes."
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Post by catherder on Apr 25, 2002 2:45:06 GMT -5
This is from the official Dark Angel website. These are supposedly from Logan's own files. Obviously the parallel between Logan and Hephaistos was not lost on someone:
Translation from Homer, 1.584-596 (After Hera quarrels with Zeus, her son, Hephaistos, gives his mother a gentle warning by recounting his perilous journey from the high citadel of Olympos down to earth. After recounting the story, we are brought back to his present condition of being lame and are witness to his continuous torment from the other gods.)
" She spoke thus, and having leapt up he put the two handled goblet in the hand of his dear mother. Then he spoke to her in this way: 'Endure, my mother, and bear all your distress, lest, even though you are dear in my eyes, I should see you struck down. At that point, although I am sorry, I will not be able to help you in any way. For the Olympian is grievous when he is set against. You see, at a previous time he hurled me, striving in defense, from the sweetly divine threshold, after having taken hold of my foot. Then for the entire day I was carried downwards, and together with the setting sun I fell down to Lemnos, and even still there was a little life left in me. There the Sintian men forthwith took care of me after I'd fallen.' Thus he spoke and the goddess, white armed Hera, smiled. Still smiling at her son, she received in her hand the goblet. Then, for all the other gods from left to right, he poured the sweet nectar, drawing it from the mixing bowl. Then indeed, an unquenchable laughter arose among the blessed gods, when they saw Hephaistos moving breathless throughout the halls."
Usually gods are not physically flawed. The exception that I can think of is Hodur, in Scandinavian mythology. He was blind and Loki caused him to be the instrument of Baldur's death.
There may be more, but it's late & nothing else is coming to mind.
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Post by Scirta on Apr 25, 2002 5:56:54 GMT -5
Thanks catherder, that's food for thought til Monday when I'll be online again. Added: in theory, one who is physically flawed also has emotional /character flaws. I thought Dark Logan was great, wish for more.
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Post by Scirta on May 3, 2002 8:56:35 GMT -5
Went to that Bast lecture I mentioned. Not much that hasn't been discussed here before. Except that the speaker was really adamant about there being a verified distinction between Bast the tame one, i.e. cat, appearing after she had received offerings as a form of appeasement and Bast the wild one, i.e. lion. So our discussion earlier did have a very good point.
One other thing. I'm not really proficient when it comes to season 2, I seem to remember a snake somewhere, maybe you can tell me if this has a point. The speaker said that a cat is present in the images showing Ra as he kills Apophis/Apep, the snake god.
On Apophis: "An Egyptian monster living in perpetual darkness. This snake god is the chief of the antagonists of the sun god Re and each night he tries to stop the sun god's barque on his journey through the underworld. In the struggle between light and darkness, the monster is wounded by the divine entourage of Re with knives and spears. Apep is the personification of darkness, evil, and chaos. Occasionally, the battle was decided in his favor, causing a solar eclipse, but his victories were of short duration for Re always triumphed in the end. Eventually, Apep was slain by Re, who cut up his body and burned it. The Greeks referred to him as Apophis" From:http://www.pantheon.org/articles/a/apep.html
What else ? Yes. The cat images/representations of Bast are very often shown under a chair. Not just at someone's feet but under a chair. The domesticated version of Bast wears a necklace. I'm going overboard here, so I'll stop.
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IceX
Devoted Fan
All your base are belong to us...
Posts: 368
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Post by IceX on May 3, 2002 17:26:29 GMT -5
Went to that Bast lecture I mentioned. Not much that hasn't been discussed here before. Except that the speaker was really adamant about there being a verified distinction between Bast the tame one, i.e. cat, appearing after she had received offerings as a form of appeasement and Bast the wild one, i.e. lion. So our discussion earlier did have a very good point. That goes well with the Max=Bast comparison. The good and wild sides of Max. We saw a lot of that in S1.
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Post by Hometown9 on May 4, 2002 13:56:19 GMT -5
Last year with AJBAC we had the raven or the big black crow and it was representative of death, which we essentially got when Max was shot. This year the only part of Joshua's flag that he didn't explain was the white bird or dove. Once again we know what it means already and so we don't have a cliffhanger so much this time but instead the idea of peace and hope as what the transgenics seek for their future. Very different endings to season finales and very different birds too.
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Post by houston on May 4, 2002 14:09:30 GMT -5
Last year with AJBAC we had the raven or the big black crow and it was representative of death, which we essentially got when Max was shot. This year the only part of Joshua's flag that he didn't explain was the white bird or dove. Once again we know what it means already and so we don't have a cliffhanger so much this time but instead the idea of peace and hope as what the transgenics seek for their future. Very different endings to season finales and very different birds too. Thats a good insight you brought up Home. JC said that a S3 would be more about hope and less apocalytpic. The bird symbolism would definately fit in with that.
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Post by Star on May 4, 2002 15:30:13 GMT -5
Oh nice pickup Home. ;D ;D
You know what I also noticed in scirta's post on Ra - Ra defeating the snake god.
Now in DA we have snakes clearly associated with White and the Familiars.
So if Logan and Max are Ra and Bast - there is your mythology. And Logan is certainly a key to defeating White it is now clear with him figuring out what the runes mean. Even in FN he was key in the fight against White et al from giving the warning of the snipers on.
Very interesting.
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IceX
Devoted Fan
All your base are belong to us...
Posts: 368
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Post by IceX on May 4, 2002 20:09:10 GMT -5
Oh nice pickup Home. ;D ;D You know what I also noticed in scirta's post on Ra - Ra defeating the snake god. Now in DA we have snakes clearly associated with White and the Familiars. So if Logan and Max are Ra and Bast - there is your mythology. And Logan is certainly a key to defeating White it is now clear with him figuring out what the runes mean. Even in FN he was key in the fight against White et al from giving the warning of the snipers on. Very interesting. Very.
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Post by Forever_Eyes on May 5, 2002 0:06:53 GMT -5
Now in DA we have snakes clearly associated with White and the Familiars. So if Logan and Max are Ra and Bast - there is your mythology. And Logan is certainly a key to defeating White it is now clear with him figuring out what the runes mean. Even in FN he was key in the fight against White et al from giving the warning of the snipers on. Very interesting. It definitely is. That's connection made a lot of sense as soon as I read Scrita's post. The eclipse part reminded me of when Logan was talking about the darkness enshrouding the earth. Doesn't necessarily fit because I don't think it's the Familars who cause the darkness, (they just know it's coming), but that's what came to mind after I read it. edit: Home: Great observation about the birds and their different symbolic endings!
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Post by SisterMoon on May 5, 2002 0:11:11 GMT -5
Nice catch, Home. Very nice.
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Post by Scirta on May 6, 2002 6:19:22 GMT -5
Did you notice the black and white blending when Max and Logan hold hands ? And they're not just holding hands, they're so intertwined it's almost too suggestive. Cheesy, but I *like* it, what can can i do?
Edit: this is being discussed on M/L 7: Love is final in General.
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Post by catherder on May 10, 2002 16:21:02 GMT -5
I suspect that the "darkness", "solar eclipse" etc. will be "The Coming" that the Familiars mention several times.
Speaking of which, and totally OT, every time I hear about "The Coming" I think about Neil Young's "After the Goldrush" (don't have the words at hand, sorry), especially the last verse.
It is interesting to note that Ra slays the snake god. I've wanted Logan to be the instrument of White's destruction. It could happen.
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