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Post by LT GEN Carter USAF on Nov 16, 2002 23:02:49 GMT -5
All u guys writing is awsome u r a very creative group here i love all the eps keep it up cause u guys rox ;D ;D ;D
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Kyre
Devoted Fan
Posts: 263
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Post by Kyre on Nov 17, 2002 1:45:24 GMT -5
I would just like to drop by and say thank you to all those who are willing to post honest reviews of VS3. Star is right in saying that we welcome them.
Back when I posted my first fic, only one person pointed out a fault with one of my chapters. She didn't leave her email address, but I knew she acted as beta for an author I kept in contact with, so I tracked her down...to THANK her! I appreciated her honesty and her politeness, and her comments helped me improve the characterization in my later writing.
So, let's all say it together: Honest, polite reviews are a sign of respect. ;D
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Post by ML Fan on Nov 17, 2002 15:04:19 GMT -5
Thanks for posting your thoughts here. I have no way of knowing if you were one of the people who posted things to me anonymously, but it's hard to deal with that kind of critique because there is no way to respond to it (because it's anonymous). I didn't respond to Shawna's post in the episode 8 thread because we happen to disagree and that's her right and mine. I want to see a balanced season 3 and that means that sometimes alec and Logan might be a bit more in the forefront. Max had her own storyline that was as important as theirs, it was just separate, for the most part. I think we're able to explore more of the Max and Logan characters by having them apart and reacting to other people at times. It's a balance and I think readers have to consider that each episode is just a smaller piece of a whole season. I wish I could tell you what was coming up...what we're building to, but you'll just have to wait and see! Thank you for responding to my earlier post, Rachel!! ;D Before as I mentioned, I didn't feel comfortable leaving a review here as did other DAR members and I didn't leave an anynonmyous review for anyone because like you I would want to know where the reviews are coming from. I also think that in S2 that M/L both spent too much time, mainly because of the virus growing as characters by themselves and that alec was at the forefront too much in S2. I really missed the M/L relationship in S2. That was why I didn't enjoy BIA as much as I did the other DAS3 eps, because it felt like S2 deja vu in that sense to me as Shawna had mentioned before. I also know that I will continue to enjoy DA S3, thanks for reading this and keep up the great work!! ;D
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Post by Scirta on Nov 17, 2002 15:31:32 GMT -5
You say you want Deck to be the big bad again. Is it realistic for him to be so? Did they turn him too much into a good guy at the end of S1? He was on the way to being turned into too much of a good guy as I see it. I'm ok with him helping out to get Manticore down, but I can't help thinking that he won't give up so easily. After all, it's his life's work. And I don't think he kept after Max&co for all those years (10-11) just because he was doing his job according to the committee. There has to be something personal in it. Or do you think Deck was just looking after his own ends in AJBAC and in VS3 so far and he could plausibly once again become the main nemesis of Max and crew? I don't think he could be totally against Max&co, it wouldn't be credible. he didn't want to kill her and I think he got involved with her (remembering drunken Deck scene) too much to want to harm her - or Logan for that matter. But having him as the fatherly benefactor and independent EO operative doesn't work for me. Anyway, I'm not the Deck expert, others are. Hey guys, where are you? ;D What about Manticore? Did taking out one Manticore facility really destroy the program or is Manticore like the hydra in Greek mythology? i always saw it as a Hydra. Renfro once says ( I think it was in DT) that the committee has other projects, too. Would love to hear something about those, especially if they have something to do with the x5s. Don't know about other readers (anyone?), but I'd buy it. Hook, line and sinker. But I'd really like to hear other opinions on this. I know I have a rather peculiar take on the show and it wouldn't do to take my thoughts as general opinion. ;D
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Post by SuperBlonde on Nov 17, 2002 21:05:16 GMT -5
Hey, just found this thread, so I guess I'll add my 2 cents worth:
First off, I understand where you guys are coming from. Constructive criticism is great, and I hate it when I get the same old "this is great" "this is the best story I've ever read" stuff all of the time because I know that I'll never win a Pulitzer. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE praise, we all do, but I know that my writing's not perfect, and I'm always afraid that I've done something terribly wrong, only every one is afraid to say something to me.
On that note, I want to say that I honestly think the writers are doing a great job with VS3. The characterizations are perfect, and the plotlines are (if you know what I mean) "real" to the Dark Angel universe. (In other words, I've never said "that would never happen on DA"). Sometimes, something in an episode will strike me as . . . off balance, but after I mull it over and think about it, I usually decide that I actually liked it. My initial reaction was only because I hadn't expected that particular plot twist and I had to take time to decide how I felt about it.
So far, very few things have bothered me about VS3 (but there are some things that I haven't decided about yet.) I was a little disappointed at the way White was just cleaned up all at once (it seemed too easy), but to be honest, I was so tired of White that I was just glad to be rid of him, so it didn't really bother me too much. The things that have really bothered me were the holes S2 left us with: the no junk DNA thing, how Renfro fit into the whole mess, the runes on Max's skin, and Logan's reference in FN to Max having some "special power." (I'm not saying that Max has any such power, but she seems to be able to sense when the Familiars are about to cause trouble.) None of these things were ever really explained. The issues just sort of vanished after Sandeman left. (I've never really mentioned this because I was never 100% sure that you guys were done with that plot line. I mean, we saw Deck about to attack the Conclave, but that was all. We never a clear indication of how that ended, but I'm guessing that, after reading the teaser for the next eppy, the Familiars are history, so I'll bring it up.)
There are a few things on my mind (things that don't quite bother me, but that I'm concerned may be going a certain way), but I feel like I need to read the next eppy and see where you guys take the story before I start on that. I have faith in you guys, don't worry. I'll keep you posted.
And I would also like to share a thought with you (for anyone down on alec, or anyone who reads this, not just the VS3 writers) about alec. No, he isn't one of the main characters, but I've always found him one of the most promising. Watching him "adjust to humanity" was interesting, and almost as enjoyable as watching Max do something similar in S1. One of the main themes in S1 was Max's search for her "family" ie her fellow escapees (though it was unfortunately forgotten in S2). I've always thought it an irony that she searched for her brother Zack only to find someone who wanted to get into her pants, yet she met alec (whose job it was to try to get into her pants), and by the end of S2, he was evolving into a sort of brother-figure. I thought it a rather nice touch, though I doubt the writers did it intentionally.
To scirta, I'm loving that idea about the Committee! If VS3 goes in a different route, we should still keep it in mind. It would lead to some GREAT fanfic!
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Post by SisterMoon on Nov 17, 2002 23:31:33 GMT -5
One of the main themes in S1 was Max's search for her "family" ie her fellow escapees (though it was unfortunately forgotten in S2). I've always thought it an irony that she searched for her brother Zack only to find someone who wanted to get into her pants, yet she met alec (whose job it was to try to get into her pants), and by the end of S2, he was evolving into a sort of brother-figure. Wow, SuperBlonde! You've said what I tried to say with BIA ... only in one sentence instead of an entire episode! I've waited until now to respond to what I know is some disappointment out there over the big part alec played in BIA. I don't want to sound like I'm telling you all what to think ... if it wasn't your favorite episode, that's okay. You may not believe this, but we had VS3 fans who were heartbroken over White's death and let us know that loud and clear. About the role alec played in S2 ... I hated the game, not the player. alec could be a good secondary character. In BIA we wanted him to realize -- just as Max did a year earlier -- that he could find someone in the world to trust and look up to -- Logan. I know some of you were disappointed as well that Max and Logan weren't together much in BIA. True ... but everything Logan did in BIA was because of his love for Max. To me, he even stopped alec from running away, even after all their conflict, because it would have hurt Max. So ... that's just a look at what I was thinking as we wrote BIA. Anyway, keep saying what's on your mind. It's all good.
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Post by Dawn on Nov 19, 2002 12:50:09 GMT -5
He was on the way to being turned into too much of a good guy as I see it. I'm ok with him helping out to get Manticore down, but I can't help thinking that he won't give up so easily. After all, it's his life's work. And I don't think he kept after Max&co for all those years (10-11) just because he was doing his job according to the committee. There has to be something personal in it. I don't think he could be totally against Max&co, it wouldn't be credible. he didn't want to kill her and I think he got involved with her (remembering drunken Deck scene) too much to want to harm her - or Logan for that matter. But having him as the fatherly benefactor and independent EO operative doesn't work for me. Anyway, I'm not the Deck expert, others are. Hey guys, where are you? ;D i always saw it as a Hydra. Renfro once says ( I think it was in DT) that the committee has other projects, too. Would love to hear something about those, especially if they have something to do with the x5s. Don't know about other readers (anyone?), but I'd buy it. Hook, line and sinker. But I'd really like to hear other opinions on this. I know I have a rather peculiar take on the show and it wouldn't do to take my thoughts as general opinion. ;D I've always thought Deck had his own agenda, too. Kind of like he was working with Manticore as a 'means to an end'. When we brought Deck back, I tried to show that he still had his secrets, and that he wouldn't give those up. Sure, he'd cooperate with the x-5's---as long as it served to help him out eventually. His military history and the way he has always been in charge should show through every once in a while. I mean, it's the way Deck is. He hasn't changed that much. Deck's feelings for Max, well, I hope these continue to be considered. I brought those up briefly, just to keep them in the back of people's minds. And it leaves the door open for future eps where this could be explained or factored in somehow. He has some deep feelings for Max. His drunken failing in AJBAC showed this pretty well. As to whether Deck would really go back to a bad, bad guy...I dunno. It's not something I really want to do. Having him as a bonifide good guy doesn't work, either. Deck isn't one to be trusted. He's up to something. I like that about him. It's like someone who you think you have figured out, and all of a sudden he throws you a curve ball. He'd be working towards gaining the trust of others, because that would work to his advantage. So, maybe Deck does seem to be falling in line with his cooperation, but that would be what he wants, and it'd sure make a writer like myself really psyched about throwing that unexpected curve ball at the readers. ;D Remember in DT, when Deck appeared to be cooperating with Renfro and McGinnis to give EO up? With what I had seen of Deck, I was surprised that he would do that, but, then again, this is Deck. You never know what to expect. And it turned out he tricked some folks to get what he wanted. I have found that Deck isn't the easiest person to write. I try to keep him similar to how he was portrayed in S1. He wasn't in S2 enough to have made a difference. But, like I said, this isn't easy. And I know we all try to write him the best that we know how. We've got to keep you coming back for more. And we've gotta keep true to the whole mystery that surrounds Good Ol' Deck. ;D I'm gonna end with a little bit from one of my favorite songs by The Cure that always reminds me of Deck: "Make believe in magic. Make believe in dreams. Make believe in possible. Nothing as it seems. Never really understand what anything means. Another second of my life Not knowing if it's true. Make believe in nothing Is all I want of you. Whisper me the secret. Whisper me there is, Always something other, Something more than this." I can go on and on about Deck, but I'll stop here for now.
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Post by natty on Nov 19, 2002 17:09:03 GMT -5
TEXTHey folks... Here is my two cents.. Super Blonde..you hit the nail on the head with alec I think, and I hope that he is a character that we see more of when we consider the growth and development of Max and Logan as individuals that compliment each other for the betterment of the world their friends and lastly (as with most hero / martyr types ) themselves etc. I think the writers should take heart from the anonymity of the naysayers since those of us who give a damn stand by our comments and are enriched by the feedback of others. I wish that I could have been a writer myself, but such skill escapes me. I am thus far very happy to enjoy the work done both by vs3 writers and the ever so important fanfic dolks like superblonde and dark phantom especially. Note on Lydecker Well, unless we have another elusive baddie on the horizon that can throw a curve ball.... Note on Mole I hate him but not for him to be removed...he fills an essential character building role in this show that will help Max reclaim AND SURPASS her s1 kickassness and possibly even mature into a truly dynamic leader... Terminal city tired but lots of potential when we consider that any alternative means fragmentation for the "non-human" Manticorians. I think it limits the scope for ideas outside of the US though...I don't knoew if anyone agrees... Otherwise...I am still looking for that crisis to make everyone pull together for the better of one or two that reminds us of our humanity...the good and the bad...with plenti arse kickin and some shippiness...
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Post by DarkPhanton on Nov 19, 2002 18:40:19 GMT -5
Hey everyone! I have been away lately so I haven't seen this post before, but now as I discovered it I had to say something. I have read most of the previous post (not all of 'em 'cause I'm LAZY ). First of all, I must confess that I have been TOTALLY away from the vs3 and the reflections site for nearly a month. Mostly because I'm not using the computer much nowadays, but also because of the re-runs, I really think they suck ;D, but I understand the reasons they exist, it just that I already have all the chapters save on my PC and I already read each one of them at least twice so this month of reruns really makes me miss a fresh episode . Anyway, about my feelings towards the vs3. I have posted at least once on every episode threat so I believe I have already shared all my thoughts. Overall I absolutely love it, just for giving us "something" to fill the DA void is already motive to appreciate it. But of course it's much more than that, the writers are very skilled and serious and the episodes perfectly written and I like the way the vs3 is going. One thing that intrigued me (and I already commented about it on the episode threat) were Max's runes, 'cause Sandeman appeared and leaved in a very brief period of time and they didn't even comment about the runes, so it was really strange, I mean some freakish weird stuff is popping up on your body and when the guy that can answer your questions finally appear you forget about it?HOW COME?! M/L action, that's a tricky thing, there are some that like heavy fluffly actions and other just mild, undercover shipper. I personally think that you guys should mix it, like most of the times keep it simple and hidden which is the way the S1 lovers are used to and enjoy, that undercover secret thing Max and Logan alwasy shared. But there should be always a couple episodes for fun, where everything is allowed and possible, like "Art Attack", "Boo" and others... Also I would really like to see Max in heat again ;D (also another reason why I'm dying of anxiety 'till december 3rd to see episode "Cat Scratch Fever" I think there's heat involved ), but if you guys really bring it back you must come up with a reasonable explanation for the why it disappeared for one year. Well I also liked the seizures, Logan's penthouse, chess games, candlelights dinner, his Mac...but that's another dealio ;D. About the alec matter, even though he is not my favorite character, his manticore past brings many possibilities of development, and I can't picture him settled down with a girl, he really is the playboy type, and his style is the best thing he has. Well, I think that's all. See you guys later, I'll try to visit more but if I don't appear for a while, rest assured, 'cause december 3rd I'll certainly be here.
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Post by Ginny on Nov 20, 2002 12:18:18 GMT -5
I think that anonymous comments should be taken "with a grain of salt" - maybe there is something of value in them, so don't miss it; but then if the manner of expression is deliberately offensive and denigrating perhaps the comments should be ignored.
I've enjoyed season 3, but there are some things I've wondered about.
White: never liked him or the idea of the "familiars", so I wasn't upset one he and his were dispatched. However, I did get the "feeling" that it was done rather quickly. I did think that Sandeman being the dispatcher of White was a well-conceived justly-deserved touch of irony.
I've been looking for the clash and conflict between Sung and Clemente and the next meeting between Sung and Logan - and I'm still looking.
I am tired of Terminal City. They can't stay there forever! However, I don't have a clue as to what to do with it or the residents. Factually, the Manticore creations are "property of the U.S.Govt." and extremely well-trained soldiers, however enslaved. A secret agency? Do we need a Congressional investigation, and the discovery of what agency and who is behind it? Then a determination as to what status the Manticore soldiers have in the U.S. Citizenship? Freedom? Advantages of staying soldiers as a recognized elite force? One of them had asked the question rhetorically, "What was he [Sandeman} thinking? Look at us?" A good question - can you anser it? Can you come up with a viable solution to what can be done with the Manticore creations who are indeed human/non-human? A place has to be found for them.
I loved the relationship between Logan and Alex as it developed in BIA. Of course, something should have happened to keep them from getting back to TC as scheduled - and what a great way to develop their relationship - getting drunk! So typically male.
I do want Max and Logan to have fun such as in Art Attack, and to work together as they did with Eyes Only. After all there is still a corrupt and broken world out there.
I love Lydecker - he is one of the best villains I've seen in a long time. I don't know if I would ever trust him. I do not think that I want him to become a "goodie". But then he is not all bad - at least he protects those X5s. But what is his attitude toward the other creations at Manticore?
Women always have friends to talk to. Gotta keep O.C. in on the action.
Don't mind if you put Logan "back in the chair" but I do like his having mobility with the exoskeleton (even though I see the exoskeleton as pure fiction).
I'm enjoying the minor characters: Gemma and Elfie, Aveta, Joshua, Drs. Carr and Shankar.
I keep looking for Mole to start trouble - and he keeps "backing down". How come?
I have begun to re-read the episodes. If anything hits me as "out of sync" I'll let you know. But basically, I'm having a good time.
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Post by DarkAngel9019 on Nov 29, 2002 18:20:12 GMT -5
Look Star don't take it personally, its probably just some idiots (AKA FrutyFly fans), what you guys are doing is great. I love what you have done. AND i HAVE missed a few THOUSAND episodes but I am catchin up.
Bye (I am goin on the site to read the lastest one!)
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Post by Hometown9 on Dec 1, 2002 17:00:03 GMT -5
If this post is to sound like criticism then it's hoped right at the start (by me) that it's seen as the constructive sort. I haven't been outrightly thrilled at all of the VS3 stories thus far. Many such reasons seem to be the case and for that I don't fault the writers of the eps. It's been a matter of them playing the had they were dealt and let's face it we all know that S2 left them in the kind of predicament regarding the world of DA that we never wanted in the first place. If for just the simple forcing of the writeres to have to deal with the transgenics and how they were pretty much undefined characters in their own way. Mole had demonstrated a personlality and a couple of the others too, but to introduce more of them in a third season where the envirornment doesn't permit them to show what they're capable of, or grow for that matter. It's an unfair burden to have to bear.
Next is the fact that while we know writing is what truly *makes* the story, DA was quite a lot of gettting that story across by way of a visual medium. So it's a bit harder for me to read of Max or alec using their enhanced abilities and fighting skill to perform a spinning kick or run at eye-blurring speed, and appreciate what's going on. I'd rather be seeing it happen in the course of 40 seconds than reading it in about three minutes (yes I can be reading that slow sometimes) and not knowing what my iimagination thinks it would have looked like. Sometimes it was silly while watching an ep where Max would do a front somersault flip in mid air. It didn't seem to me that it was quite purposeful for her to do it in order to escape a hoverdrone that was firing at her, but to try and write something like that is just plain difficult. So if scenes involving action don't happen to be the writers' strong suit, you can't hold that against them.
There also seem to be time and space constraints that I'm not sure about. That in order to get an ep completed (again in the written form) that there may have to be quite a lot of editing that goes on and scenes get pared down in order to allow for the story itself to reach the intended conclusion. That being said, I still feel like the Familiars that have been in VS3 have been captured, neutralized or dispatched FAR too easily than what the characters that played them in S2 made these beings out to be. This season they've been virtual 'pushovers' and not the same kind of threat that would seem to me, they were designed to represent.
If I were to think back to S1, I could say that those eps could almost be stand alone in terms of each of them being a complete story. With S2 though, DA became more of a serial drama with a few exceptions. Once again, that's where the VS3 writers have had to take up from. I don't think I would have wanted Max to be any messianic savior type, but after that got introduced I guess I wanted to see what it would have meant because in all our hearts I'm betting we've believed that what's right and good (Max and Logan) was going to win in the end. The end of White and the threat of the breeding cult's human annihilation came a little bit soon this year and not anywhere near what I expect is the end of the DA story. The runes on her skin and the way that Max sensed the Phalanx moving in during FN made her out to be becoming almost mystical/magical. So that to have her blood be utilized in the development of an antidote is a sizeable come-down from where we had been led to believe she'd be saving the world in a bigger, more ostentatious way. Again the fault was in S2 making her into such when she ought to have been able to stay her S1 self. She was special enough already.
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Post by Star on Dec 2, 2002 16:58:46 GMT -5
If this post is to sound like criticism then it's hoped right at the start (by me) that it's seen as the constructive sort. I haven't been outrightly thrilled at all of the VS3 stories thus far. Many such reasons seem to be the case and for that I don't fault the writers of the eps. It's been a matter of them playing the had they were dealt and let's face it we all know that S2 left them in the kind of predicament regarding the world of DA that we never wanted in the first place. Again the fault was in S2 making her into such when she ought to have been able to stay her S1 self. She was special enough already. Hey Home thanks for the honesty. I guess my comment is that you are 100% correct in that S2 created a godawful mess of DA that has proven very difficult to work with. The original intent of VS3 was to get back to that S1 theme and feel of the show - the difficulty is in doing it given the givens of S2. I don't have any answers for you - only some of the same questions you have!!
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Post by Brazil_Nut on Dec 2, 2002 20:09:28 GMT -5
I just want to say, that I´m having more fun reading VS3, than I had watching S2. You are doing a great job! I think that it´s impossible to make everybory happy.
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Post by DarkAngel9019 on Dec 4, 2002 15:45:47 GMT -5
S2 was not that bad
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