Herumor
Devoted Fan
I'm wracked by guilt...
Posts: 209
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Post by Herumor on Jul 12, 2009 20:39:45 GMT -5
There's a new chapter of What About Now by Paper Roses and Candy Kisses posted. R&R, peeps! This is listed as a Max and alec fic and overall had too much alec and not enough Logan for me to want to to read it. Give it another chance, read chapter three and see what you think...
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Post by ML Fan on Jul 12, 2009 20:49:18 GMT -5
This is listed as a Max and alec fic and overall had too much alec and not enough Logan for me to want to to read it. Give it another chance, read chapter three and see what you think... I would not post and or discuss a fic here that is listed as an M/A fic because, I think that it upsets and misleads readers myself included when there is slight Max and Logan when in reality the fic will be a Max and alec centered fic, even if they are not romantically involved. As a writer, I want people reading my work who geuninely like and appericate Max and Logan and I will post my work as M/L fics and would never post a fic under Max and alec fics not just because I don't care for alec taking over DA in Season 2, but, because, it is misleading and it caused a lot of problems on this forum previously. I sincerely hope that something like that situation is something that I never see again. I'm sorry but, I am not at all interested in this fic and I hope that you can understand and respect my reason why. This fic would be better suited for a Max and alec centered forum, but, not this forum in my honest opinion. I am someone who would rather read a poorly written Max and Logan fic than read a single M/A fic. I have nothing against anyone who is a non-Max and Logan shipper, I just choose not to read or discuss their work here and to instead enjoy one of the few Max and Logan forums that we have left today where we can discuss Max and Logan and their fics without anything else.
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Herumor
Devoted Fan
I'm wracked by guilt...
Posts: 209
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Post by Herumor on Jul 13, 2009 1:04:15 GMT -5
Give it another chance, read chapter three and see what you think... I would not post and or discuss a fic here that is listed as an M/A fic because, I think that it upsets and misleads readers myself included when there is slight Max and Logan when in reality the fic will be a Max and alec centered fic, even if they are not romantically involved. As a writer, I want people reading my work who geuninely like and appericate Max and Logan and I will post my work as M/L fics and would never post a fic under Max and alec fics not just because I don't care for alec taking over DA in Season 2, but, because, it is misleading and it caused a lot of problems on this forum previously. I sincerely hope that something like that situation is something that I never see again. I'm sorry but, I am not at all interested in this fic and I hope that you can understand and respect my reason why. This fic would be better suited for a Max and alec centered forum, but, not this forum in my honest opinion. I am someone who would rather read a poorly written Max and Logan fic than read a single M/A fic. I have nothing against anyone who is a non-Max and Logan shipper, I just choose not to read or discuss their work here and to instead enjoy one of the few Max and Logan forums that we have left today where we can discuss Max and Logan and their fics without anything else. Fair enough. I wasn't here for the ugliness that you mention, or for the shipper wars, so to speak, over at FFN, but I've read enough old posts and seen enough writers stop writing because of it. I'm not trying to push something that other might find distasteful, and believe me, I find 95% of M/A fics hard to swallow, most of them centering on how Max really comes to her senses after a good f%&k. While there are a few (very few) that don't bash, demean or just destroy Logan, there are some that are actually very, very good, and make sense within canon. That said, I would've been very, very happy if A had never existed, if only to avoid the unpleasant situation. But he's there, he's canon, and he's actually a very interesting character, I just can't seem to picture him with Max in any way as a romantic interest, not even as a heat-fueled encounter. Hell, especially as a heat encounter. I understand your concerns about a seemingly M/L friendly fic turning M/A, It's happened to me, to see halfway a long story how Max suddenly sees the light and Logan turns to be an a$$hole...but I don't think that's the case here. I've been helping the writer with her characterizations, especially Logan's as she had never seen Season one, and she doesn't buy M/A either. That's not to say that Max will instantly fall into Logan's arms, and A will just vanish in a flash of pink smoke, but she's closer to our tastes, and I think it will prove to be a very good story. I respect your opinion, of course, and your decision not to read it. That goes without saying. I don't want to be pegged as pushing you or anyone else into reading something that will, or even could prove distasteful for them. I've found this forum to be my refuge in a stormy sea of distasteful and, quite frankly, creepy fic. I've met a lot of people, and I'd like to believe I've even made a couple of friends, and reading the new post every morning with my (first) coffee is one of the high points of my day...hrm, that sounded a little sad... Anyway, the last thing I want is to be seen as sowing discontent here, that was never my intent. It's not my intent to perturb or piss off people. I do like this story, but I won't post any more alerts if it's seen as contrary to the forum policy, even by one people. I apologize to you and to anyone else that might have felt the same way, but I stand by my opinion. I'm not saying you're censoring me, at least I don't think you are, but there's no point in posting things that will upset any of you. Thanks for your time, peeps.
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Post by Aerie on Jul 13, 2009 1:48:42 GMT -5
Very well expressed Herumor. Be glad you weren't around for the wars. The alec fans would troll our site and post horrible stuff about Michael Weatherly and Jessica Alba, daily, until we had to ban a lot of our members and stop new registration. Basically we were manipulated by an employee of Dark Angel/Fox Broadcasting. She played both sides off each other with her posting and private email to us. It got so bad that a DA Forum, that was alec friendly,forbid us to post anything about Logan and changed the name of their site to DIE LOGAN DIE. ;D In April 2002, as a joint effort, we filed a legal complaint directly to Fox Broadcasting's Legal Department, naming the Fox employee and the DIE LOGAN DIE website. The site openly stated they were associated with and had the support of the Dark Angel writers and others associated with the show. We presented evidence to back up the claim. The DLD site was closed and the show was soon canceled so we all lost. I can see the humor in all of this now, but there was a lot of bitterness at the time. "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness"
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Post by ML Fan on Jul 13, 2009 1:55:13 GMT -5
I keep in mind that when I'm recommending a fic in this thread that Max and Logan should be at the forefront of the fic and if they're not, well, then the fic isn't going to be mentioned by me here as something to read, because people here members and guests aren't looking for alec centric fic with Max, they are looking for Max and Logan fic. I am not saying that alec has to instantly disappear but, in order to get M/L shippers such as myself to even be remotely interested in this fic there needs to be less alec and more Max and Logan. I think that it is misleading to other readers to list a fic as an M/L fic and then when you read it have alec at the forefront and I would rather read a poorly written M/L fic than read a M/A fic or an alec centric fic. I also think that while M/L shippers may not like alec in varying degrees from what I've seen the writers do respect him and don't bash in the way that I've seen it with Logan and so no matter how great an M/A fic may turn out to be, I'm just not going to read it.
Whenever I post in this thread especially, I keep this in the back of my mind.
5. This a Season 1 Fan Board. Don't come here looking to rave about S2 and how wonderful it was because we aren't interested. There are other sites on the internet where you can adore Season 2. This is not one of them. Deliberate attempts to incite arguments/controversy over S2 will be cause for deletionand banning.
6. This is a Max/Logan and/or Shipper Neutral Site.
Threads shipping Max/alec or Max/Zack or Max/White will be closed.
alec threads and Ames White threads will be closed due to past problems with them.
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Post by UncleGordo on Jul 13, 2009 17:24:38 GMT -5
I fully support ML Fan's views regarding Max/alec fics, it sickens me when I go to FanFiction.net and see the number of these Max/alec fics posted there. The writers of these stories have absolutely no appreciation to the series that all of us dearly loved and were totally pissed off when Fox cancelled the series. Although the writers of the series in the second season really ruined the series that Jim Cameron had created.
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Post by Mr.Clark on Jul 13, 2009 18:15:55 GMT -5
I really don't know how much of the show Cameron really had a hand in. Looking at his credentials the Pilot is the only episode that says Written By, the rest say creator/exec producer etc. I really think Chris Eglee was the major player and shower runner. From what I've read James Cameron has spent most of his waking hours since making Titanic developing the technology for Avatar, he has seriously spent the majority of the past decade working on that. Thats usually how it works for these big directors the TV shows are just something for there production company, sure they'll help forumlate the idea and maybe direct a pilot or an episode here or there but they aren't involved on a daily basis. Bryan Singer did that for House, the Scott brothers did it for Numbers, Sam Raimi, JJ Abrams the list goes on.
That being said I think she blame for season two falls mostly on the studio. The seismic shift in the show represents most of what I dislike about network TV. While the first season had a lot of long running subplots and themes and some great character development.
The second season looked like a studio execs referendum, make it more procedural, focus more on the freak-shows, and bring in a hip young guy to grab that boy band loving demographic. Procedurals can be good in certain subject matters the problem is the consistency of the product makes it more pragmatic for studios.
Which is why the more enlightened shows have to find whatever solace and success they can find on the channels higher up the dial. This is a big reason why I think the Wire is the greatest show ever and a one off, the type of thing that may never really be experienced again. If I'm honest the the The Wire is more like a 60 part miniseries or a novel put to film, it works better on DVD than it did as a once a week show. Kings is a perfect example of a network trying to give a show like this a chance only to see it end in utter failure. I'll stop now because I could completely hijack this thread with my thoughts on the nature of story telling on TV and how counter productive it is.
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Herumor
Devoted Fan
I'm wracked by guilt...
Posts: 209
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Post by Herumor on Jul 13, 2009 19:05:36 GMT -5
That being said I think she blame for season two falls mostly on the studio. The seismic shift in the show represents most of what I dislike about network TV. While the first season had a lot of long running subplots and themes and some great character development. The second season looked like a studio execs referendum, make it more procedural, focus more on the freak-shows, and bring in a hip young guy to grab that boy band loving demographic. Procedurals can be good in certain subject matters the problem is the consistency of the product makes it more pragmatic for studios. My thoughts exactly! It's particularly painful if we consider that the targeted demographic for Dark Angel was 18-36... The vast majority of M/A and A fans were in their early teens, and I've read a lot of angry posts that state that the polls made by the studio during season two wanted Max to end up with A as leaders of the Transgenic Nation...I don't know about you, but I've never seen one of those polls that had the option to add a choice not there before, and it was aimed to 12-18 viewers...meaning the studio was trying to shift it's target audience...which was pretty stupid if we consider that the show was shifted in the second season to the dreaded friday night slot, yet another vote of non confidence in my book. Argh, don't get me started...
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Post by shywriter on Jul 13, 2009 22:06:10 GMT -5
As an aside -- the same old tired commercial from me: I fully support ML Fan's views regarding Max/alec fics, it sickens me when I go to FanFiction.net and see the number of these Max/alec fics posted there. The writers of these stories have absolutely no appreciation to the series that all of us dearly loved ... ...then hop on and review the M/L stories we do have and let those few writers still writing M/L that you appreciate their stories!!
I'm deadly serious here, folks -- if you read M/L fic and want more, are you letting the authors know you do? It takes 30 seconds to leave a one or two word review, so it can't be time. Anonymous reviews are easy and usually accepted so it can't be shyness. There are a variety of styles, genres, skill levels and story types so you can't say they're not your type. If you read current M/L fic and just don't like anything about any of it, then you probably won't really care if it disappears altogether. But consider the writer who posts a well done, thoughtful story and gets only two to four reviews, even with 100+ hits or so -- what are they supposed to think? No one reviews = no one likes the story. Not too many people will keep posting their work if they think no one likes it. We're losing more and more writers, with fewer and fewer new ones replacing them. It's incredibly discouraging to take hours in writing and editing a story to have only a very few people react to it -- it easily can seem as if the work just good enough or interesting enough to rate reactions from the remaining fans. You can make a difference with just a word or two. I challenge everyone here who reads any fic, new or old, if you liked it, TELL THE WRITER!! In a fandom with apparently so few remaining fans, it just might make the difference to someone who is considering just not posting anymore. To each of you out there: how many stories have you read in the past week? How many of them did you review? For anyone who posts a recommendation in this or other threads -- did you review the story too?If we don't tell the writers we have left that their stories are appreciated -- how in the world are they supposed to know??
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Post by ML Fan on Jul 13, 2009 22:36:12 GMT -5
As an aside -- the same old tired commercial from me: I fully support ML Fan's views regarding Max/alec fics, it sickens me when I go to FanFiction.net and see the number of these Max/alec fics posted there. The writers of these stories have absolutely no appreciation to the series that all of us dearly loved ... ...then hop on and review the M/L stories we do have and let those few writers still writing M/L that you appreciate their stories!!
I'm deadly serious here, folks -- if you read M/L fic and want more, are you letting the authors know you do? It takes 30 seconds to leave a one or two word review, so it can't be time. Anonymous reviews are easy and usually accepted so it can't be shyness. There are a variety of styles, genres, skill levels and story types so you can't say they're not your type. If you read current M/L fic and just don't like anything about any of it, then you probably won't really care if it disappears altogether. But consider the writer who posts a well done, thoughtful story and gets only two to four reviews, even with 100+ hits or so -- what are they supposed to think? No one reviews = no one likes the story. Not too many people will keep posting their work if they think no one likes it. We're losing more and more writers, with fewer and fewer new ones replacing them. It's incredibly discouraging to take hours in writing and editing a story to have only a very few people react to it -- it easily can seem as if the work just good enough or interesting enough to rate reactions from the remaining fans. You can make a difference with just a word or two. I challenge everyone here who reads any fic, new or old, if you liked it, TELL THE WRITER!! In a fandom with apparently so few remaining fans, it just might make the difference to someone who is considering just not posting anymore. To each of you out there: how many stories have you read in the past week? How many of them did you review? For anyone who posts a recommendation in this or other threads -- did you review the story too?If we don't tell the writers we have left that their stories are appreciated -- how in the world are they supposed to know?? I know that there are certainly people who have chosen not to read an M/L fanfic until they see that it is completed and this is because there are so many unfinished fics where the writer has stopped updating and so I can certainly understand the reader's frustration in starting to read a fanfic and then have the fanfic be left unfinsihed with the storyline(s) unresolved and so I understand why someone someone may not read a fanfic until it is done regardless of who wrote it and what they've written previously and I completely respect and understand that decision. I would also have to wonder what role the worldwide economic downfall has played in the lack of reviews and new fanfic as well because I think that could be a factor as well, since fanfics unfortunately can't pay the bills. I also think that if someone is simply writing fanfics for reviews and praise that they aren't writing for the right reason(s). I think that if someone would like to review a fanfic that they will leave a review either on FF.net or by PM, but, I don't take it personally if someone doesn't leave a review, because, perhaps they are shy and although yes, I will miss out on feedback that I cannot force someone to review my work even if they are reading. I also know that many M/L fanfic writers on FF.net will not allow anonymous reviews because of people have left reviews simply just to cause trouble and I again completely respect an author's decision to not accept anonymous reviews if they have had a problem with them previously.
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Post by mari on Jul 14, 2009 13:03:19 GMT -5
I know that there are certainly people who have chosen not to read an M/L fanfic until they see that it is completed I also think that if someone is simply writing fanfics for reviews and praise that they aren't writing for the right reason(s). Yeah, but point is if everybody only read and reviewed completed stories there were no reviews and why would we need FFnet and LJ with their review and comment functions then? Fanfic isn’t like writing a book, the internet isn’t like a traditional bookstore. There’s communication, a give and take, an inspiration often even from ideas (or criticism) in reviews. I think this is what we should focus on instead of the idea that some of us writers can’t accept / understand the reality of other people having a free will and a RL. This isn’t about fanfic writers so dependent on other people’s opinions that they stop writing with lack of feedback, it’s about them only willing to share and publish their work (which many would continue to write privately) if they know it’s appreciated by at least a few…. To know that there’s still of a community keeping a fandom alive. Just my opinion.
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Post by ML Fan on Jul 14, 2009 18:28:50 GMT -5
I know that there are certainly people who have chosen not to read an M/L fanfic until they see that it is completed I also think that if someone is simply writing fanfics for reviews and praise that they aren't writing for the right reason(s). Yeah, but point is if everybody only read and reviewed completed stories there were no reviews and why would we need FFnet and LJ with their review and comment functions then? Fanfic isn’t like writing a book, the internet isn’t like a traditional bookstore. There’s communication, a give and take, an inspiration often even from ideas (or criticism) in reviews. I think this is what we should focus on instead of the idea that some of us writers can’t accept / understand the reality of other people having a free will and a RL. This isn’t about fanfic writers so dependent on other people’s opinions that they stop writing with lack of feedback, it’s about them only willing to share and publish their work (which many would continue to write privately) if they know it’s appreciated by at least a few…. To know that there’s still of a community keeping a fandom alive. Just my opinion. I think that the fandom will always remain alive. I think that it can be frustrating for any reader in any fandom to start a fic and then for whatever reason that the writer(s) stops updating the fanfic(s) or writing and the fic is left unresolved and incomplete. I can certainly understand why someone may be frustrated and decide if they had not previously that they were no longer going to read or review a fic until it is listed as completed because the reader was enjoying a fic but, left hanging, so while as a writer I may not like it, I understand and accept that choice. I don't take that view personally and I think if someone wants to leave a review that they will and that being more subtle sometimes works better than asking for reviews and feedback. I've learned to be patient both as a writer and a reader of Max and Logan fic.
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Post by shywriter on Jul 14, 2009 18:40:34 GMT -5
The issue remains simply this: if you read fanfic and enjoy it, it would be a good thing if you told the author that. Putting aside all the other variables – not to say they’re not factors, but removing from this discussion any works in progress, removing from this discussion those writers not writing because of the economy or who choose to disable anonymous reviews – the issue remains that there are a number of completed stories that people read and enjoy; there are writers who accept anonymous reviews and readers who are not shy; there are a number of these stories not getting responses from those who read and enjoy. So, again: if you read fanfic and enjoy it, it would be a good thing if you told the author that. In the interest of full disclosure, this is the pot calling the kettle black; I owe reviews and have a whole list of excuses. I would even venture to say that I really do have a longer drive and longer work hours than others, but admit to having fewer kids and less housework than others. When feeling particularly defensive I try to convince myself that I contribute “review time” with beta services – but most of the time I have to kick myself, because ... "If you read fanfic and enjoy it, it would be a good thing if you told the author that." I also think that if someone is simply writing fanfics for reviews and praise that they aren't writing for the right reason(s). On this one issue I do have an argument to raise, however, and will adjust my rant to say this: if you read fanfic and enjoy it, it should not matter to you why the author wrote it. I don’t think you’re advocating that a reader withhold reviews based on their speculation of why a writer writes and posts. You are free to disapprove of someone’s reason for doing what they do, but the point of the post was ... (....everyone sing along...) ...if you read fanfic and enjoy it, it would be a good thing if you told the author that. Unless the writer tells you why they write, and tell you honestly (maybe they don’t even know what screwy little thoughts they have deep down), you don’t know why they write. You may think you do; you may be right. Or you may have misjudged. But – banging the drum again – if you like the story ... you like it. No matter what moved the author, or why. And if you liked it.... (you know the rest.) Seriously, folks, writers can be an insecure lot. Posting fanfic is like an amateur getting up on a stage in a big arena, singing in front of an audience. You sing your heart out and you know there’s an audience out there beyond the footlights but you can’t see them – and if they don’t boo or cheer or whistle or clap or throw rotten tomatoes – you have no idea how you sound to others. So how many times would you get up on that stage and keep singing? Oh sure, you’ll sing in the car, in the shower and in the basement, maybe even at your best friend’s wedding – but forget about the stage, because you really, really don’t want to keep getting up and singing your heart out if it’s really pretty bad, after all. A comment or review is like a small pat on the back or a tomato on the face, but it’s feedback. And it’s a small thing, isn’t it, just a small payment for free fiction? Fanfic is free and is a labor of love by those writing it, but there’s never any guarantee that it will be there just because we want it. In an aging fandom we would do well to encourage our writers to keep sharing on FFN or LJ or other free, public spaces. Otherwise they may just go back to singing in the shower.
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Post by shywriter on Jul 14, 2009 18:45:14 GMT -5
I think that it can be frustrating for any reader in any fandom to start a fic and then for whatever reason that the writer(s) stops updating the fanfic(s) or writing and the fic is left unresolved and incomplete. ML Fan, it's clear that this is an issue for you and you certainly are not alone. This is an entirely valid explanation for fewer reviews on WIPs. Not so much for the one-shots or completed stories, though.
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Post by shywriter on Jul 14, 2009 18:55:11 GMT -5
Yeah, but point is if everybody only read and reviewed completed stories there were no reviews and why would we need FFnet and LJ with their review and comment functions then? Fanfic isn’t like writing a book, the internet isn’t like a traditional bookstore. Great point -- nor is it a library, which becomes an entitlement in many places -- a taxpayer may have a local public library or a student may have a university library which becomes essentially an entitlement of sorts, given the taxes or tuition paid. With fanfic, readers don't have to pay. ... here's a thought: for those incomplete stories, disappointing readers -- I'm sure for many of the writers, the issue of reviews wasn't what made the writer quit writing. ...but we just don't know, do we?
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