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Post by Mr.Clark on Nov 27, 2009 4:08:13 GMT -5
What CBS and therefore what SB wants, is to keep things exactly the way they are for as long as they possibly can and milk this cash cow for all shes worth. The last thing they want is a change that would take Gibbs or DiNozzo out of the spotlight and place them in a lesser role. I get your point and this is exactly what made me stop watching House after seeing most of the episodes of S1. I liked the characters, I liked the way the team worked together, it’s a bit different than the standard hospital show… but after a while… just always the same all over again. Same things with CSI, I watched a row of episodes early on and liked it but now when it’s on it just doesn’t get me anymore. (Maybe the reason why I never got into any of their spin-offs) So assuming that’s their tactic and purpose in making Tony act more like his older self… a very fine line to annoying and driving away those people who at least expect some kind of consistency in the way the characters act. Your very right the way House suddenly has those lightbulb moments all the time that allow him to solve the case got rediculous very fast. Personally it didn't make a lick of difference because i wasn't watching the show for anything to do with medicine. I found his character so fascinating I would have watched him doing just about anything. Because I think at some point Tony has to emerge as the alpha and either take over his own team or push Gibbs out, not doing so would ruin the team dynamic and diminish Gibbs who the writers have spent 7 seasons turning into this iconic archetype character. Hm… I don’t know. I guess you’re right with Tony (and all of them) probably moving on to having their own team at some point, but (and maybe I just didn’t watch often and closely enough) I don’t really see serious alpha male issues developing between Tony and Gibbs. Maybe I see them too much in a mentor-relationship, but I don’t think there necessarily would have too be a concurrency for primacy between them. (One could argue that the team works better with a more mature than with a childish Tony) I think the dynamic the writers have built upon since episode one is that Gibbs is the ultimate alpha in the universe of this show. Eventually a competent and fully matured Tony who had learned all he could from Gibbs would challenge that which would just make things kind of weird.
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Post by shywriter on Nov 27, 2009 7:57:50 GMT -5
I think the dynamic the writers have built upon since episode one is that Gibbs is the ultimate alpha in the universe of this show. Eventually a competent and fully matured Tony who had learned all he could from Gibbs would challenge that which would just make things kind of weird. I don’t really see serious alpha male issues developing between Tony and Gibbs. Maybe I see them too much in a mentor-relationship, but I don’t think there necessarily would have too be a concurrency for primacy between them. (One could argue that the team works better with a more mature than with a childish Tony) I agree with Mari in not seeing a true alpha situation, as Tony shows no signs of thinking he can best Gibbs, but for the show, yeah, it's all about having Harmon's character be the one who's (nearly) always right, in the end. MW has said as much, also less in terms of alpha and more in terms of capability, but his point as far as upsetting the 'Gibbs on top' balance is the same. In at least a couple interviews this fall he used last year's ep, "Bounce," to point it out -- that none of them are good enough to do their jobs without Gibbs, as shown by the fact that while Tony was team leader, they put away the wrong guy (Rene). But the writers have also shown that it's certainly possible to write Gibbs with a skilled team; they've shown they can have a funny and even silly Tony without his being a total hamburger about it. I just wish they would keep that more in mind. After all, a major case squad in the District Office would have among the more skilled of their employees, and even those investigators who otherwise might be ready for their own teams can't get one if there are no openings -- especially in this economy it makes sense that positions are frozen, etc. Or when there is an opening, it might be turned down for a number of reasons. No matter what Tony said about turning down Rota because Gibbs wasn't 100%, or Gibbs suggesting that Tony would take a team when he was ready, I always thought that for Tony it was still that father-son sort of thing, he didn't want to leave dad/family, and having that connection in his life was more important than a promotion or being in charge. However, all that said, I watched this ep again and felt better about it -- I really could have done without the clam chowder bit; it was a painful stretch for comic relief that wasn't humorous. An interesting but sad note that they played well was Ducky's being alone for Thanksgiving: I liked the way they kept it in the foreground by his hopeful, dogged insistence in discussing their dinner -- not unreasonable because he knew Abby was coming, so he had at least one guest and it made sense that he kept up with the planning of his meal, getting in the way of his usual, more professional focus because of his mother's clear decline. This was the first time he wasn't direct about it, first saying she was comfortable and well cared for, then adding almost as an aside that she barely knows him anymore. That whole plot thread was handled with some thought and finesse. They did have some cute character bits that seemed to fit the plot, though -- Ziva on Tony's shoulders and how they did that, physically, was a fun example -- and I liked the two or three times that Gibbs actually showed that he was enjoying his team's more wacky selves -- his look to Tony when Ziva told him to bend over in that scene, for example. I guess if they're going to show us what they have in mind for Tony, especially if they're really pointing to some weird emotional impasse for him, it may well be something they're holding for the ep with his father. Just crossing fingers and pressing thumbs that, now that they have everyone watching, they don't mess this up!
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Post by Mr.Clark on Nov 27, 2009 8:39:46 GMT -5
It might just be my personal opinion but my view of Tony is that he is Gibbs 2.0, albeit a work in progress. I think the mentor relationship is the best way to describe it, IMO when Tonys character is fully matured and developed he'd be just as competent, wise and effective in his job as Gibbs is.
I think eventually there will come a time when the student becomes the master or at least completely equal to him. I don't think hes the type of character to be a permanent side kick, Gibbs has on several occasions acknowledged that he's grooming Tony to be his successor, most obvious of which would be when Gibbs put Tony in charge then went on the tequila safari. So my opinion therefor is that eventually the day will come when Tony is at equal to Gibbs at which point I think somethings got to give in terms of the team dynamic and structure.
Also just because Tony put one wrong guy away doesn't mean he's incapable of becoming Gibbs equal, or that because he has hes clearly not ready to take the reigns anytime soon. Lets not forget that Gibbs and Fornell both put the wrong guy behind bars in Escaped, even the ultimate investigator is capable of making mistakes while at the top of his game.
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Post by shywriter on Nov 27, 2009 8:49:38 GMT -5
It might just be my personal opinion but my view of Tony is that he is Gibbs 2.0, albeit a work in progress. I think the mentor relationship is the best way to describe it, IMO when Tonys character is fully matured and developed he'd be just as competent, wise and effective in his job as Gibbs is. I think eventually there will come a time when the student becomes the master or at least completely equal to him. I don't think hes the type of character to be a permanent side kick, Gibbs has on several occasions acknowledged that he's grooming Tony to be his successor, most obvious of which would be when Gibbs put Tony in charge then went on the tequila safari. So my opinion therefor is that eventually the day will come when Tony is at equal to Gibbs at which point I think somethings got to give in terms of the team dynamic and structure. Also just because Tony put one wrong guy away doesn't mean he's incapable of becoming Gibbs equal, or that because he has hes clearly not ready to take the reigns anytime soon. Lets not forget that Gibbs and Fornell both put the wrong guy behind bars in Escaped, even the ultimate investigator is capable of making mistakes while at the top of his game. Agreed in full. I would suspect that Tony and Gibbs both hope that Tony's being ready for leadership would coincide with Gibbs' being ready for whatever comes after team leadership for him. The writers' dilemma is that as the characters are now, Tony is/will be ready for leadership sooner than Gibbs will be ready to retire. I know the writers don't pull down the salaries that the actors do, but I imagine those writing for the #1 show are getting a few nickels per ep. I hope it's not too much to ask that they do this right. P.S.: Also just because Tony put one wrong guy away doesn't mean he's incapable of becoming Gibbs equal, or that because he has hes clearly not ready to take the reigns anytime soon. Big agreement there -- again, the "screw up" analysis wasn't mine, but MW's. In fact, I was slightly surprised when MW put out the idea that Tony & the others had to be shown as not ready to be in charge yet, for the reason you point out here. Why MW said it that way, who knows, but he said it in more than one interview -- whether it's a bit of frustration or just his sense of irony, who knows, but each time it was in connection to his parents calling after the ep and saying he/Tony wasn't a very good leader-- he took that as "job well done," showing the audience that Tony still needs Gibbs. Who knows if that's MW channeling SB and the writers, but your description fits both the show and what would happen in a investigation unit --
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Post by Mr.Clark on Nov 27, 2009 11:19:31 GMT -5
It might just be my personal opinion but my view of Tony is that he is Gibbs 2.0, albeit a work in progress. I think the mentor relationship is the best way to describe it, IMO when Tonys character is fully matured and developed he'd be just as competent, wise and effective in his job as Gibbs is. I think eventually there will come a time when the student becomes the master or at least completely equal to him. I don't think hes the type of character to be a permanent side kick, Gibbs has on several occasions acknowledged that he's grooming Tony to be his successor, most obvious of which would be when Gibbs put Tony in charge then went on the tequila safari. So my opinion therefor is that eventually the day will come when Tony is at equal to Gibbs at which point I think somethings got to give in terms of the team dynamic and structure. Also just because Tony put one wrong guy away doesn't mean he's incapable of becoming Gibbs equal, or that because he has hes clearly not ready to take the reigns anytime soon. Lets not forget that Gibbs and Fornell both put the wrong guy behind bars in Escaped, even the ultimate investigator is capable of making mistakes while at the top of his game. Agreed in full. I would suspect that Tony and Gibbs both hope that Tony's being ready for leadership would coincide with Gibbs' being ready for whatever comes after team leadership for him. The writers' dilemma is that as the characters are now, Tony is/will be ready for leadership sooner than Gibbs will be ready to retire. I know the writers don't pull down the salaries that the actors do, but I imagine those writing for the #1 show are getting a few nickels per ep. I hope it's not too much to ask that they do this right. Exactly, I felt at the start of this season after the first couple episodes Tony was starting to get closer to that point. The point when there needed to be something of a changing of the guard. Thats why I wanted to start a thread at SpecialOps to see other peoples opinions on the question of 'What should come next?' While I'm sure a good chunk of the community at SpeocialOps that worships Harmon above all else would have a conniption but I think its an interesting debate that's well worth having. The problem is that since episode two of this season Tony has started to come unraveled both in terms of his consistency as a professional investigator and in his personal relationships with the team. My assumption therefore is that the writers are aware of this dilemma and have used this inconsistency as a way to stunt Tony's growth and put off the debate, I'm eagerly awaiting, and the inevitable choice they would have to make as a result of this development. The reason they want to put this off is most likely so that they don't make a change that will alienate big sections of the fan base if A. Gibbs moved out of the team lead to a smaller role like say director (or God forbid retirement) or B. Tony left the team to lead his own team which would take him out of the spot light (if not off the show altogether). Either one of those options would have a polarizing effect on the fan base, many of whom would start chanting that the show had 'Jumped the shark' when in fact it was properly developing its characters. This of course would result in many fans wishing the show would go back to the way it was before, I.E. my point about shows cryogenically freezing their characters so that everybody stays happy for as long as possible. That way you only piss of the people that actually care about narrative story telling and character development, like me, not the masses of potential consumers that just want bland light entertainment. P.S.: Also just because Tony put one wrong guy away doesn't mean he's incapable of becoming Gibbs equal, or that because he has hes clearly not ready to take the reigns anytime soon. Big agreement there -- again, the "screw up" analysis wasn't mine, but MW's. In fact, I was slightly surprised when MW put out the idea that Tony & the others had to be shown as not ready to be in charge yet, for the reason you point out here. Why MW said it that way, who knows, but he said it in more than one interview -- whether it's a bit of frustration or just his sense of irony, who knows, but each time it was in connection to his parents calling after the ep and saying he/Tony wasn't a very good leader-- he took that as "job well done," showing the audience that Tony still needs Gibbs. Who knows if that's MW channeling SB and the writers, but your description fits both the show and what would happen in a investigation unit -- Michael seems to have a chronic lack of appreciation for his character and seems to not like the character or his characters role in the team dynamic. I can only imagine this is due to one of a couple of things A. he likes to screw with the media/fanbase, tell them stuff they don't want to hear just to keep them on their toes, B. he's just self deprecating by nature and does it as a means of getting people to feel better about his work and/or the character as a means of positive reinforcement, or C. he just has very little grasp on how his character feels or thinks or sees the world. Of those three reasons I have to think C. is the least likely given the amount of personality and life MW himself brought to the character independent of the lines the writers give him. I'm of the belief that option B. is the most likely MW seems like the kind of guy who has private and public persona's, his lack of confidence in his character could be a reflection of his own self deprecating, more humble off camera personality. I've long been of the belief that the less you think of yourself the more complementary everyone else opinions of you will be. I also think option A. could be a factor in this, rather than give away any real beliefs on the characters feelings that might get the fanbase's expectations up its better to play coy and temper their expectations so they more than likely enjoy the end result rather than let it feel disappointing/anti-climactic. P.S. this is starting to remind me of our old discussions via FFN private messages.
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