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Post by ML Fan on Feb 25, 2009 21:32:18 GMT -5
Ah, I had forgotten about this! I think that the writers tried to make a point, show Tony becoming more like Gibbs, intentionally or not; Gibbs goes to Ducky for advice, so Tony goes to Palmer...it totally makes sense, in a retarded, third-grade kind of way, but it does... ;D ;D Oh, yes of course. I didn't think of this. Yes this is exactly what the writers were doing and it sucks. The idea of going to Palmer for advice is half clever in a "we are switching everything up ep" one off kind of way but it goes completely against everything we have seen form these characters for the past 3 or 4 years ( however long Palmer has been on the show ). And now the writers will probably never reference it again but the problem is for us viewers who can't erase it from our brains. This is the kind of lazy, stupid stunt writing that ruins shows. I'm not saying this is that bad  , but once they do this kind of thing it is easier to believe they will do it again  . I liked "Bounce" despite some plot holes and an odd scene between Jimmy and Tony, I didn't think that the plot holes were anywhere near as bad as in "Broken Bird." I liked that Gibbs was willing to let Tony take the lead in a case and it showed that he really had confidence in Tony's abilities as an investigator. I think that one awkward scene is not as bad as having the NCIS director be a series regular because in my opinion regardless of who the writers and TPTB have had to play the Director that the role could be interesting and compelling, but, to me the role has been flat for a long time and it isn't the actor's fault, to me that is weak writing and I had hoped that with Vance's arrival that the writers would do more with the Director but, that's not happening.  |
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Post by shywriter on Mar 28, 2009 13:10:54 GMT -5
-- this was the first ep I've ever seen that felt like fanfic! Several things -- including Gibbs' talk with "Anthony" -- were things we hadn't really seen on the show much (if at all) but is often done in fic. ;D That is soooooo the reason I don't read fan fic. ;D  Actually, if you did read fanfic, you'd know that little human discussions aren't why you don't read it -- you don't read it because you don't want to read about Tony being pregnant with Gibbs' 'love child..!' (just trying to be helpful! ;D) |
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Post by dzero on Mar 28, 2009 19:23:42 GMT -5
That is soooooo the reason I don't read fan fic. ;D Actually, if you did read fanfic, you'd know that little human discussions aren't why you don't read it -- you don't read it because you don't want to read about Tony being pregnant with Gibbs' 'love child..!' (just trying to be helpful! ;D) 1. It took you a month to write that? ;D 2. Is there really some crazy fic where Tony gets pregnant? 3. When I wrote that I thought I was agreeing with you  , maybe we are misunderstanding each other. So since I've never really given any reason for my dislike of fan fic I'll do it here with the hope that you don't take it personally for this is about all fan fic not just those written by you or even those written just for DA/NCIS. Basically I don't like that the characters seem so different to me than the way they have been established on whichever show they come from. We all see the shows/characters in our own way and when you read fan fic it is written how the author sees the characters and I just can't reconcile that with how I feel the characters have been established on the show already. It's like their take on the character invalidates my understanding of the character which, of course, I dislike  . I know this is slightly irrational but there you go. If you go back through my posts on NCIS episodes my biggest criticisms have been when episodes featured the characters doing something "out of character" this drives me nuts and it just seems to happen more often in fan fic. The weird thing is that shows that seem to be able to have their characters do surprising things (yet still stay "in character" according to my arbitrary definitions ) seem to be my favorites. The Sopranos and Mad Men are two shows that excel at this, for example. I think one of the reasons that the fan fic seems to bug me in this way is that it is a written story and therefore contains much more about the characters thoughts and feelings according to the fan fic author. On TV of course we don't usually hear the character's inner dialog. Being told what characters I love think and feel by someone who isn't from the actual TV show is just not appealing to me. |
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Post by shywriter on Mar 28, 2009 21:49:41 GMT -5
1. It took you a month to write that? ;D Hey, I've been busy. Last week I was on an ALP. A Tyrolean one, to be precise (and after gales of derisive laughter from hordes of friends and co-workers, I have proven that one can refer to ONE ALP, in the singular, as well as a group. Look it up! ;D) Indeed -- several! And that's why I answered as I did -- 'cos if you don't rummage thru fic, you probably didn't know that the 'mere' writing of off- character characters in fanfic is nuthin' compared to some of the other stuff out there! Parenthetically, I have been known to get discussions started about "M-preg" as I'm endlessly curious to know what it's all about: I've read several such stories and NONE of them ever treated a male being pregnant as anything different from a female being pregnant!! It's just bizarre; my theory was that it was all written by 13 year old girls (which doesn't explain the lack of at least irony in the stories) but some of my peeps think otherwise... nah, we're on a wavelength -- just hadda fill you in on the vastness of what you're missing! ;D I'm sure you're not alone, and honestly, I haven't found all that much NCIS fanfic that I've liked for the same reason. (Maybe for whatever reason, I'm more tolerant of character variations and AUs in DA fic, but it fits there too.) It's completely legit to decide that your take on the characters are right and the author, wrong -- and I suspect that most readers tend to have as their favorite fic those stories who portray characters more closely to how they imagine the characters than not -- it's human nature! Absolutely -- not in small part due to much of it being done by amateurs who are just doing it for kicks. And I can't speak for fanfic other than DA and NCIS, but you're right, there just aren't too many NCIS fic that "feel" like the show -- and I have even read stories by authors generally seen by fans to write pretty true to the show, and haven't found many of them to be too close, either. Maybe my own weird view ... but there ya go. It's definitely a different medium, prose as opposed to (professional) scripts acted out on the screen ... and it's not for everyone! ...but still ... when you have a few minutes ... let us find you some good ol' m-preg! ;D It will be life-changing ... |
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Post by Michele on Mar 28, 2009 22:07:46 GMT -5
lol there are some crazy fan fics out there, I saw the warning of one that was slash also a DA crossover with NCIS. you don't want to know the pairing.
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Post by Mr.Clark on Mar 29, 2009 0:28:29 GMT -5
Basically I don't like that the characters seem so different to me than the way they have been established on whichever show they come from. We all see the shows/characters in our own way and when you read fan fic it is written how the author sees the characters and I just can't reconcile that with how I feel the characters have been established on the show already. It's like their take on the character invalidates my understanding of the character which, of course, I dislike . I know this is slightly irrational but there you go. If you go back through my posts on NCIS episodes my biggest criticisms have been when episodes featured the characters doing something "out of character" this drives me nuts and it just seems to happen more often in fan fic. The weird thing is that shows that seem to be able to have their characters do surprising things (yet still stay "in character" according to my arbitrary definitions ) seem to be my favorites. The Sopranos and Mad Men are two shows that excel at this, for example. I think one of the reasons that the fan fic seems to bug me in this way is that it is a written story and therefore contains much more about the characters thoughts and feelings according to the fan fic author. On TV of course we don't usually hear the character's inner dialog. Being told what characters I love think and feel by someone who isn't from the actual TV show is just not appealing to me. Yea I agree thats a large part of why I've almost completely stopped reading fanfic from authors I'm not familiar with. My tolorance for authors who fail, sometimes without even trying, at finding the voice of the character. Thinking how the character thinks or even speaking as the character speaks. Its all subjective but at the same time theres lines that are all too easy to cross. Parenthetically, I have been known to get discussions started about "M-preg" as I'm endlessly curious to know what it's all about: I've read several such stories and NONE of them ever treated a male being pregnant as anything different from a female being pregnant!! It's just bizarre; my theory was that it was all written by 13 year old girls (which doesn't explain the lack of at least irony in the stories) but some of my peeps think otherwise... As repulsive as that entire concept is to me I think its a consummation thing, I think its safe to say that the majority of those types of stories are written by women. I think for them its about reaching a level of fulfillment in the romantic relationship thats is hitherto impossible in the real world of male homosexual relationships. Either that or its a dominance thing, Gibb's being 'man' enough to knock up another man pretty much puts him at the top of the 'alpha male' chart no matter how much you slice it. |
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Post by Michele on Mar 29, 2009 0:49:43 GMT -5
Basically I don't like that the characters seem so different to me than the way they have been established on whichever show they come from. We all see the shows/characters in our own way and when you read fan fic it is written how the author sees the characters and I just can't reconcile that with how I feel the characters have been established on the show already. It's like their take on the character invalidates my understanding of the character which, of course, I dislike . I know this is slightly irrational but there you go. If you go back through my posts on NCIS episodes my biggest criticisms have been when episodes featured the characters doing something "out of character" this drives me nuts and it just seems to happen more often in fan fic. The weird thing is that shows that seem to be able to have their characters do surprising things (yet still stay "in character" according to my arbitrary definitions ) seem to be my favorites. The Sopranos and Mad Men are two shows that excel at this, for example. I think one of the reasons that the fan fic seems to bug me in this way is that it is a written story and therefore contains much more about the characters thoughts and feelings according to the fan fic author. On TV of course we don't usually hear the character's inner dialog. Being told what characters I love think and feel by someone who isn't from the actual TV show is just not appealing to me. Yea I agree thats a large part of why I've almost completely stopped reading fanfic from authors I'm not familiar with. My tolorance for authors who fail, sometimes without even trying, at finding the voice of the character. Thinking how the character thinks or even speaking as the character speaks. Its all subjective but at the same time theres lines that are all too easy to cross. I agree with you, some authors do a really great job. but there are authors who do a real bad job. |
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Post by dzero on Mar 29, 2009 12:58:34 GMT -5
Hey, I've been busy. Last week I was on an ALP. A Tyrolean one, to be precise I hear that is the best kind of ALP.  my way of saying I had to look up Tyrolean |
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Post by mari on Mar 29, 2009 14:10:39 GMT -5
Hey, I've been busy. Last week I was on an ALP. A Tyrolean one, to be precise I hear that is the best kind of ALP. This:  Is the best definition.. (Glad the memories are of being ON and not IN an alp. Also any disbelievers in singular alps might be threatened by old uni-papers on them in their singular and plural form… ;D) But back on topic (or closer at least ) Absolutely -- not in small part due to much of it being done by amateurs who are just doing it for kicks. And I can't speak for fanfic other than DA and NCIS, but you're right, there just aren't too many NCIS fic that "feel" like the show -- and I have even read stories by authors generally seen by fans to write pretty true to the show, and haven't found many of them to be too close, either. Maybe my own weird view ... but there ya go. I was thinking the same, especially in comparison to DA? Maybe just because I never was as absorbed with NCIS as with DA? Harder to catch the feeling and characters because different, less serious kind of show or because they’re not focusing on two main characters? Harder to write crime story cases like in NCIS than the EO and fluff stuff of DA? |
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Post by shywriter on Mar 29, 2009 15:22:23 GMT -5
oooo I hear that is the best kind of ALP. This: Is the best definition.. Hey, I know that Alp! How about this one, people walking UP our Alp (no, no one I know, I don't know people that ... er ... robust -- but yes, those little black dots on the white snow are people on skis walking up our Alp.) 
...and I just may have to order a copy of singular and plural Alpen-studies! ;D I was thinking the same, especially in comparison to DA? Maybe just because I never was as absorbed with NCIS as with DA? Harder to catch the feeling and characters because different, less serious kind of show or because they’re not focusing on two main characters? Harder to write crime story cases like in NCIS than the EO and fluff stuff of DA? I got to thinking about the same thing after the notes here and went to look again at some NCIS fic. I noticed that in a few of the better ones the writers seem to be pretty good at capturing Ducky, and almost as good with Abby. It's Gibbs and Tony who get the most mangled -- but then, it seems that as Gibbs and Tony are the two most often who are the favorites of female fic writers, and as a result are often pulled OOC to fit the writer's view of who they are 'down deep.' So many stories are less crime story and more often some deep, heart-pounding angst or luuuuv or some other drama not a part of a case, as opposed to the usual crime capers of the series (sprinkled with some humor or even character development as they may be.) Ducky and Abby may seem to be done better because the writer isn't as worried about molding them in their own image of them, and consequently are written more true to the show's version of the character. So along with the reader being less hooked on the show or the characters as they might be for, say, DA ( ;D) this lowered connection to the characters and the show may also be due to the fic writers' inclination to alter both the characters *and* the basic plot premises of the show for their own purposes, moving the fic even further from the source. (I can't fault them for it 'cos heaven knows I've done that to the DA characters!  ) At least that's one reason why so many NCIS fics just don't quite fit the series... |
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Post by shywriter on Mar 29, 2009 15:24:27 GMT -5
Either that or its a dominance thing, Gibb's being 'man' enough to knock up another man pretty much puts him at the top of the 'alpha male' chart no matter how much you slice it.  excellent point!! |
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Post by dzero on Mar 30, 2009 14:19:25 GMT -5
Where are the elephants? Hannibal FTW |
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Post by mari on Mar 30, 2009 17:16:59 GMT -5
Where are the elephants? Hannibal FTWJust around the corner, hiding in the zoo down there. ;D I got to thinking about the same thing after the notes here and went to look again at some NCIS fic. I noticed that in a few of the better ones the writers seem to be pretty good at capturing Ducky, and almost as good with Abby. It's Gibbs and Tony who get the most mangled -- but then, it seems that as Gibbs and Tony are the two most often who are the favorites of female fic writers, and as a result are often pulled OOC to fit the writer's view of who they are 'down deep.' So many stories are less crime story and more often some deep, heart-pounding angst or luuuuv or some other drama not a part of a case, as opposed to the usual crime capers of the series (sprinkled with some humor or even character development as they may be.) Ducky and Abby may seem to be done better because the writer isn't as worried about molding them in their own image of them, and consequently are written more true to the show's version of the character. Hm, interesting… (Oddly the only NCIS story idea I ever halfway seriously thought to write out concentrates on Abby and Ducky). Maybe they’re also usually better portrayed because they’re such clear-cut characters, no question about who they are, whereas with Tony and Gibbs writers usually try to find their hidden sides, the soft (Gibbs) or sensitive (Tony) core? (Basically what you're saying but the other way round?) Easy to over-do it and slip into sounding off-character…. |
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, but once they do this kind of thing it is easier to believe they will do it again 
.
, maybe we are misunderstanding each other. So since I've never really given any reason for my dislike of fan fic I'll do it here with the hope that you don't take it personally for this is about all fan fic not just those written by you or even those written just for DA/NCIS. 
. I know this is slightly irrational but there you go. If you go back through my posts on NCIS episodes my biggest criticisms have been when episodes featured the characters doing something "out of character" this drives me nuts and it just seems to happen more often in fan fic. The weird thing is that shows that seem to be able to have their characters do surprising things (yet still stay "in character" according to my arbitrary definitions 
) At least that's one reason why so many NCIS fics just don't quite fit the series...