Herumor
Devoted Fan
I'm wracked by guilt...
Posts: 209
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Post by Herumor on Dec 16, 2008 6:23:19 GMT -5
Yes, between Convergence, Much Ado About the Details, and now Playing with Fire it's shaping up to be a very good christmas ;D And i'm holding my breath for an update to Thoughts in the Dark as well.
Sigh...
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Post by shywriter on Dec 16, 2008 7:32:47 GMT -5
Wow, I wonder how many other people do that. To be honest, if no one was responding to my stuff I'd of stopped publishing a long time ago under the assumption no one liked it. As is, watching the reviews come in the and the numbers of the readers go up is like Christmas morning every time. It motivates me to keep working on stories that, frankly, I've always known the ending to. Thanks for the reminder of how important it can be for writers to hear from their readers -- we've had that discussion (read: I've been on that soapbox) a handful of times here... I know there are some people who don't fully understand just how much it means to get some reaction for their stories (like a certain person here who doesn't get the insecurity many of us have! ) but if there is any doubt .... reviews matter!!Thanks for reminding me of my favorite rant ... ;D
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Herumor
Devoted Fan
I'm wracked by guilt...
Posts: 209
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Post by Herumor on Dec 17, 2008 7:55:56 GMT -5
I've taken to read through the reviews of stories i've really liked, specially older ones, and the amount of influence that feedback, both positive and negative, had in the development of the stories is HUGE! And i don't just mean "if this many people review i'll update sooner", but i've seen a lot of long, very insightful review actually influence and even shape the story... reviews are a powerful creative tool!
And as promised, i'm starting to leave reviews of all your stories, Shywr1ter, starting from the oldest... It's going to take a while...
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Post by mari on Dec 17, 2008 15:10:38 GMT -5
the amount of influence that feedback, both positive and negative, had in the development of the stories is HUGE! And i don't just mean "if this many people review i'll update sooner", but i've seen a lot of long, very insightful review actually influence and even shape the story... reviews are a powerful creative tool! But is that always a 100 % positive thing? I mean when I review I want to rave about what I like and (selfishly-geekily) figure out why I liked what – but very much don’t want to influence the story. I think I get your point, herumor, the benefits of knowing that people have noticed the points an author wanted to make, finding different ideas and perspectives, in short encouragement and constructive criticism… but I don’t know, isn’t there a line where all that becomes intruding into the author’s world? (At least that’s always how I feel a bit with my long, rambling, over-analyzing reviews that must make this sound terribly hypocritical). If we acknowledge that apart from motivating writers reviews influence stories, doesn’t that mean that one has to be especially careful what to say? And I don’t mean being uncritical, saying that you like when you didn’t (which is just wrong, no question)… just, I wouldn't want my review to influence the story, or like you worded it, herumor, to be ‘creative tools’. To me that would feel intruding and presumptuous. (Edited to sound less clumsy )
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Post by shywriter on Dec 17, 2008 23:05:11 GMT -5
I've taken to read through the reviews of stories i've really liked, specially older ones, and the amount of influence that feedback, both positive and negative, had in the development of the stories is HUGE! And i don't just mean "if this many people review i'll update sooner", but i've seen a lot of long, very insightful review actually influence and even shape the story... reviews are a powerful creative tool! I can't speak for anyone else but it has for me -- a couple stories went in a completely different direction than originally planned -- one in particular was *much* better for it! ...but I don’t know, isn’t there a line where all that becomes intruding into the author’s world? It never feels that way to me, especially 'cos I beg for the input. I really enjoy the comments (and all your lovely wallow-analysis -- it's always so fun to see what you pick up & mention, what you see the same way I have, what points you've thought of that never crossed my mind... ) It's another way to experience the fic the writer has just finished. For those authors (so many of us!) who beg for reviews, especially we insecure ones who need to know how the story has seemed to someone(s) else, I bet there's no real concern that the reviewer is intruding -- we invited you! (or hauled you in against your will... ) I wouldn't want my review to influence the story, or like you worded it, herumor, to be ‘creative tools’. To me that would feel intruding and presumptuous. Because you're not our prof or boss or our spouse or someone we *had* to obey and/or change the story to suit, it doesn't feel intruding ot presumptuous to me -- I can take the stuff I like, maybe adjust as it seems might be what the readers would like to see ... and just consider the rest without making a big overhaul. That being said, there are just not too many downsides of any review. Granted, there are some ya gotta wonder about (like the person(s) reviewing only when they can point out an error)but there's nothing like an "atta boy" to let you know you connected somehow... And as promised, i'm starting to leave reviews of all your stories, Shywr1ter, starting from the oldest... It's going to take a while... (thanks! ;D)
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Herumor
Devoted Fan
I'm wracked by guilt...
Posts: 209
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Post by Herumor on Dec 18, 2008 7:58:30 GMT -5
I think it's always a positive thing that you could influence a story, for better or worse, but that's just me being a little chaotic ;D But seriously, i feel that fanfic, as is the case with most exercises in creative writing, do not exist in a vacuum, but rely in the existence of a willing audience, that actively seeks out that work, as opposed to just seat your a$$ down on the couch and flipping through channels, or just reading 'the funnies' instead of wading through the staggering wealth of web comics just waiting there, a couple of keystrokes away. That said, i've had my ideas and stories smashed, chewed and regurgited enough in college to wish it on someone else, let alone be the instrument of EVIL myself... but i digress. At least for me, the moment you let your work out into the wide blue yonder you relinquish at least a small amount of control; after all, it's natural to inmerse oneself in the story, and to react to it differently than the author, at least in some ways: you might not like a figure of speech, a character, the description of a sunset, or the shirt the girl is wearing. You take part in the story, and bring your feelings and opinions into it. It's human nature. So no, you don't sound hypocritical, just a little sef-concious ;D ... which you shouldn't be, i've read several of your reviews and always found them very insightful...you've got a sharp, analitical mind, kudos! ;D ;D ;D As for the line, it's actually for the author to decide where and if to draw it, as it were... I didn't mean 'creative tools' for US !!!!! In this medium, at least, ultimate editor¡al power resides in the author's hands, where it should ALWAYS be, in an ideal world... and it's indeed presumptuous to assume that you should influence the story, or actually could do it directly: you can only give a fresh look, a different point of view, and maybe, if you are really lucky, an actual fresh, good, and more important workable idea: or maybe it'll do nothing for that story, but'll be used on another... the point is, you can only influence a writer if he or she wants to be... although i'll admit that a bad review, or just an overly critical one can destroy a writer's confidence and/or interest in the story, specially in a medium where most authors are fairly new to it and unseasoned. I think Shywr1ter was more articulate on the subject than me She makes a very good point, specially reagarding close friends and loved ones; i love my wife dearly, but i can't help but cringe every time i give her something of mine to read; she's brutally honest, and knows where all my buttons are, and she's not afraid to play whack-a-mole with them... but that doesn't mean that she's wrong on her observations, it's usually the opposite... go figure... Ok, i've rambled enough for now ;D... and i hope none of it came across as agressive, it was NEVER my intention to step on anyone virtual toes, but i tend to get carried away sooo... if 've miffed anyone, i apologize profusely
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Post by aurora2424 on Dec 18, 2008 11:18:29 GMT -5
I think this conversation is just wonderful. Different individuals putting forth thoughtful, interesting opinions related to DA fanfiction - exchanges like these are the reason I joined the board. In regards to reviews, I think Herumor makes a really important point about the social nature of fan fiction. When an author publishes something online, I think there is an intentional entrance into the public sphere that requires acknowledgment from the outside community to flourish. What I mean by that is I'm sure many of us have imaged stories on our own that have gone no further than a light daydream. Those images are private and fleeting. However, when someone makes the decision to turn those ideas into concrete story line, with plots, images, and arches, then it turns into an act of translation between the author's imagination and the reader. Sure there is an element of pride just from just publishing, but the larger question is what has come across well and what has been lost. A writer can't really answer that on his or her own, hence the need for reviews. Now, here is what I think is REALLY special about the review process in the fan fiction community. Unlike other types of fiction, where the only authority is the author's imagination (and perhaps the laws the grammar), fan fiction has another source - the original material. Readers maybe just as, or even more, of an authority on the original material - in this case, of course, Dark Angel. The writer is performing a sort of double translation, and the reader is in a position to give a knowledgeable response on the voice, validity, and believability of the characters and plot line. That isn't to say there won't be legitimate differences between the way two people see a character (the portrayal of Logan comes to mind), but these exchanges have a more secure base of debate. To sum it up, I think reviews perform multiple jobs (as you guys have already stated): they encourage the writer to keep going, focuses them when needed (sometimes in the form of light criticism), prods them into continuing to write when RL pulls them away, and (in my opinion the most important function) holds up a mirror so the writer can see if his or her words reflect what was intended. At the very least it lets the writer know someone is willing to continue along the "willing suspension of disbelief" (thanks Coleridge) until the project is complete. And at most, it is a wonderful reimbursement for the hours spent typing away. So IMHO, Mari, your not only a fabulous writer, but an irreplaceable part of others writing process, whether you're outright influencing or not. As is everyone else who participates in the process. Okay, I'm done now. Sorry, I have a thing for wordiness.
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Herumor
Devoted Fan
I'm wracked by guilt...
Posts: 209
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Post by Herumor on Dec 18, 2008 14:46:42 GMT -5
I can't believe that this small point slipped right past me... I was always refering to the stories as more or less independant, isolated works, without factoring in the rich, preexistent world we take the liberty to play in... I'll chalk it up to lack of sleep and over-comsumption of caffeine... Damn starbucks, they've only been open two months and i've already gone through their entire menu four times... I blame THEM ;D
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Post by mari on Dec 18, 2008 17:13:14 GMT -5
I didn't mean 'creative tools' for US !!!!! In this medium, at least, ultimate editor¡al power resides in the author's hands, where it should ALWAYS be, in an ideal world... and it's indeed presumptuous to assume that you should influence the story, or actually could do it directly: you can only give a fresh look, a different point of view, and maybe, if you are really lucky, an actual fresh, good, and more important workable idea: I’m sorry I misunderstood (as a creative tool between reader and writer), in fact what you write is pretty much what I think – and I have to apologize for reading your post in the wrong mindset of this being something going around in my head anyway. Actually my post was embarrassingly self-centred, based on me always being rather (and not just a bit, herumor ;D) self-conscious and insecure about inflicting my opinion and geeky rambling on other people. I never meant to say that I ever thought all that of other people’s reviews, like everybody I love getting long reviews for all the reasons mentioned… I was just… my usual, terribly over-thinking, self-centred self. But seriously, i feel that fanfic, as is the case with most exercises in creative writing, do not exist in a vacuum, but rely in the existence of a willing audience, that actively seeks out that work, as opposed to just seat your a$$ down on the couch and flipping through channels And the interactivity, the exchange with other people is part of what makes it fun… and in a way is what I always missed and wished for when reading those tons and tons of books in the traditional, all-on-your-own way, to have other letter-loving people to discuss it with… or even to tell the author why I loved it. What I mean by that is I'm sure many of us have imaged stories on our own that have gone no further than a light daydream. Maybe that’s one of the reasons for my hesitancy, because it is something that comes from inside of another person, their world really – even though I completely agree with you both about it changing once it’s written out as fanfic and about fanfic having a shared base, which is great, interesting point I hadn’t thought about. (Putting different weigh on the two elements – the general fandom base and the author’s creation / interpretation – maybe?) maybe adjust as it seems might be what the readers would like to see And wouldn’t that be too much already? Wouldn’t reviews then be more than just comparing reactions with the original ideas, showing how well the writer brought his ideas across? And maybe that’s a downside of writing for an audience that usually is more directly connected and familiar than in traditional writing? For example, if a reviewer says “I’d love to see more of this person or that situation”, the author might find a way to do that, fit it in… It’s a comment I’ve often made but still always wondering how legitimate it is… Ugh, enough of my strange thoughts. Thanks for the input, everybody! ;D
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Post by Mr.Clark on Dec 18, 2008 19:56:12 GMT -5
I'm not a creative person by nature. While I've had ideas for stories in the past I'd be lost trying to write something and come up with dialog and narrative. When I comment or talk to fanfic writers I only really have two goals. As Joe Public reader I try and impart on writers the stories and experiences I'd like to see characters go through, stuff that would interest or fascinate me. The other thing I try and do is help writers stay on course with there incarnation of characters, so many times they get caught up in something and on purpose or not they have characters doing things or acting in ways they certainly wouldn't if they were recreated in the purest sense. The later isn't something I don't want to go around stepping on someones toes because its there adaptation not mine.
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Herumor
Devoted Fan
I'm wracked by guilt...
Posts: 209
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Post by Herumor on Dec 18, 2008 22:25:50 GMT -5
While i agree on everyone's right to write whatever they like, as Aurora pointed out we are working in a pre-established word, and yes, you can write non-canon stories, that's why the tag AU exists; it pisses me off to start reading a story, based on recommendations or summaries, and find it to be another story about a stupid, pathetic Logan and and a Max that suddenly sees the light (read pretty boy Jensen) and ditches him on the spot, to the general acclaim of the supporting cast, the same one that spent a year trying to make L&M see past their insecurities... it's non-canon, unbelievable and, frankly, gross... Of course, that last part it's only my personal opinion, i don't wade through FFN looking for M/A stories to rag on, I just don't read them. I've had this problem several times, including one fic that was, sadly, very well written, but ended being a Logan-bashing M/A fest, and the author admitted with a smiley on the second to last chapter that s/he had chosen not to disclose the particular ship to attract readers from both sides of the divide... childish and silly...
On the matter of seeing the characters act in a way i'd like, i'm also hesitant to mention itin reviews, at most i might make a request, but never assume that it'll go beyond that, nor would i complain to the author if s/he decided not to go with it, or simply ignored me... i'm easy that way ;D
And Mari, don't worry, this has been the most stimulating conversation i've had in months, so i hope we agree to disagree again sometime ;D ;D
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Post by Mr.Clark on Dec 18, 2008 22:50:07 GMT -5
I read more NCIS fic than DA, altho there are some parealells, many writers have written Tony with the intelligence of 12 year old. My personal favorite was a Tony/Kate story where Tony was so stupid he left a fork in the microwave because he didn't know metal wasn't supposed to go in it. While he might not be a MIT grad he wouldn't have survived college without learning that you don't leave the work in with the ramen. Altho I think the author was like a 14yo girl she clearly didn't grasp the character.
I generally just make suggesting as too how I think the character would actually have acted and a bit of an explanation with the disclaimer that its there story not mine so its up to them really.
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Post by shywriter on Dec 19, 2008 0:43:27 GMT -5
I SO love you guys and this discussion here!! ...but I have a sneaking suspicion the topic police will be on to us soon... so I'm gonna start a topic in the Writers' Guild & maybe drop in a couple questions to get things going still... Please -- -if you have some more comments in this conversation, keep them going -- you may be safe to keep them here a while longer of you prefer, 'cos the discussion is great! But feel free to come over & pick it up on the new thread... (no idea what it will be called yet but I'll edit if I come up with a name ... )Please come and continue this great discussion in "Readers, (W)Riters and Reviews"
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Post by ML Fan on Dec 21, 2008 2:55:55 GMT -5
Another chapter of "Season Two Redo" by Aurora2424 is up. Chapter 20Another chapter of "Complicated Tests" by cassiecrimson is up. Chapter 6
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Herumor
Devoted Fan
I'm wracked by guilt...
Posts: 209
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Post by Herumor on Jan 2, 2009 19:55:23 GMT -5
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