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Post by shywriter on Dec 19, 2008 3:03:24 GMT -5
Hoping all of you discussing fic reviews and reactions will bring your discussion here! ;D To kick things off -- something Mr. Clark said got me thinking, and might lead us into some discussion: When I comment or talk to fanfic writers I only really have two goals. As Joe Public reader I try and impart on writers the stories and experiences I'd like to see characters go through, stuff that would interest or fascinate me. The other thing I try and do is help writers stay on course with there incarnation of characters, so many times they get caught up in something and on purpose or not they have characters doing things or acting in ways they certainly wouldn't if they were recreated in the purest sense. This is great! I love this approach; it seems to be a very 'active' approach to reading a fic... So to kick things off -- and everyone please feel free to add your thoughts!-- readers: when you review, what do you usually want to tell the author? (and, if you want to share, why?) -- writers: are there some sorts of reviews that you particularly like, or are especially helpful, etc? -- readers: are there things that writers do that make you decide not to review? -- writers: have reviews -- or the lack of reviews -- ever changed what or how you write? (whether just one chap, or a story, or over all?) --everyone: We are very lucky in DA that negative reviews are almost nonexistent. However, there are reviews that point out errors and/or are critical of some points, but usually in a reasonable and neutral way. What do you think about review contents, since they're public? If you have offered constructive criticism, is there a reason you do it in a review rather than a PM? At what point does 'constructive' criticism become more 'destructive' than 'constructive?' ...and thanks for the discussion! Please feel free to add your own questions and comments!
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Post by Mr.Clark on Dec 19, 2008 4:51:17 GMT -5
With maybe one exception I don't think I've ever given a negative review. If I really dislike something I keep it to myself because I always respect people who have talents I don't and respect them even more when they have the guts to share it with the world, another trait I lack. I will however post critical reviews, my philosophy has always been never complain about a problem unless you have a solution. So in many cases when I see something I disagree with in a writers story telling I will post up what I disagreed with, and why I think it should be different.
The main thing that gets me to not review is when I don't like a story and the biggest reason for me to not like a story, more so than OOC moments, is mushy $5 paperback romance novel writing. I'm sure that appeals a lot to the female readers which probably compose a much larger percentage of those at FF.net than men, but for me I don't want to see characters just mush it up. Sap in small doses is ok, what I want is originality instead of cliches. IMO the best stories are very angst filled stories that ask a lot of the reader with, in some cases very little and slowly earned rewards. I want to see characters tested and stretched to the breaking point, I want to see how they react in unpleasant situations because if you can stay in character in times like that it shows real skill as a writer.
When it comes to romance stories I don't want to see white picket fence relationships where its smooth sailing the more rocky roads and trying times the better because every time a character is at odds you see more of there moxie is exposed. To me the two most important things in a story are depth of character and character development and I've always felt the more you beat and abuse a character the more depth and development you see because that's life.
Oh dear there I've gone with another 5am philosophy lesson, I do hope its made some sense if not I blame the Scotch.
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Post by shywriter on Dec 19, 2008 8:37:06 GMT -5
Oh dear there I've gone with another 5am philosophy lesson, I do hope its made some sense if not I blame the Scotch. Scotch at 5 AM? Who says you're not a writer?? ;D Great comments, perfectly sensible ... very interesting to see into a reader's head with what you're looking for, what turns you off. It fits with something I've noticed with various stories I've posted -- while there are some people who review all stories, there are also some 'regular' reviewers who review only one type of story -- mooshy ones, for example. I often wondered if they might be reading all of them, but moved to write a comment only when the mooshy stuff gets to them. On the other hand, I know a couple others who might review faithfully every fic other than the 'cousinsverse' stories, because they (admittedly) refuse to read crossovers, period. It's pretty obvious it is connected with the readers' tastes in some way -- and this is sort of what I'd been assuming, but in a bit of a different way. Thanks for the insights!
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Herumor
Devoted Fan
I'm wracked by guilt...
Posts: 209
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Post by Herumor on Dec 19, 2008 10:25:21 GMT -5
I must agree on almost everything with you, Mr.Clark, the exception being, of course, the level of mushiness (is this even a word? If not, I'm setting it loose on the unsuspecting world with fatherly pride and unshed, manly tears ;D ;D); being and incurable romantic I need a little mushiness (go forth, my child!) every now and then: of course, it's not what leads me to a story, and i thrive on angst...but i suspect my mush threshold is a little higher than yours. ;D That said, while i might enjoy a fluffy, romantic story just for fluff's sake, i need more substance in my reading. The best writers make an amazing job of balancing this elements, in a seamless, utterly believable story: the key for me it's suspension of disbelief, if I'm going ' Huh??' or more commonly 'WTF???) every five minutes I'm probably going to drop the story... I've found it to be a common mistake to use exclamation and/or capitals (i think that's the correct word ) every other sentence coming out of the characters mouths, and in M/L's particular case, it's not only excruciatingly painful to bear, but also waaaaaaaay OOC... Also, you can have lots of fluff in an angsty story, and viceversa, without much problem if you know how to; a simple scene, a few words, and you can insert a world of hurt in a sea of pink lace... I particularly liked a scene in Shy's "Asylum" when.. CAUTION - SPOILER AHEAD!!...the journalist that tracked them watches as Max and Logan say their goodbyes, when she leaves him... every glance, gesture, and emotion shouted their feelings for each other, and the pain and reluctance at their forced separation...masterfuly done, Shy!! ;D (your homemade oatmeal & cinnamon cookies are on the mail ;D). With a (deceptively) simple description by an outside observer, we get a glimpse at the apparent destruction of their domestic life, their pain and sorrow, but also their unflagging love and devotion to each other...(did i mention that i REALLY, REALLY liked that particular scene?) . I count myself lucky that people as talented, and let's admit it, dedicated, have decided to play in this particular sandbox; as i pointed out before on a PM, I've read many, many mainstream, actually decent novels that can't hold a candle to the work of writers like Shywr1ter, Mia and Mari, to name but a few... the Stars Wars novels come to mind... Also, i tend to use PM to ask questions or offer suggestions to the writer, to do so in an open, public review strikes too similar to calling out mistakes or errors in class, having to endure what's closer to public humiliation than actual, honest criticism... i'd rather use reviews to encourage, comment and ask clarification on some point... to me, It's healthier that way to everyone involved. I also agree with you on the subject of negative reviews, if i don't agree with something, or just don't like it, but have nothing to offer to the author, i just keep it to myself. And I've rambled enough for a single post ;D
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Post by Mr.Clark on Dec 19, 2008 14:33:48 GMT -5
Oh dear there I've gone with another 5am philosophy lesson, I do hope its made some sense if not I blame the Scotch. Scotch at 5 AM? Who says you're not a writer?? ;D Great comments, perfectly sensible ... very interesting to see into a reader's head with what you're looking for, what turns you off. It fits with something I've noticed with various stories I've posted -- while there are some people who review all stories, there are also some 'regular' reviewers who review only one type of story -- mooshy ones, for example. I often wondered if they might be reading all of them, but moved to write a comment only when the mooshy stuff gets to them. On the other hand, I know a couple others who might review faithfully every fic other than the 'cousinsverse' stories, because they (admittedly) refuse to read crossovers, period. It's pretty obvious it is connected with the readers' tastes in some way -- and this is sort of what I'd been assuming, but in a bit of a different way. Thanks for the insights! Yea I don't do crossovers, sorry. Which is ironic because I'm quite certain if I ever wrote something it would seem like a dozen different crossovers because my lack of originality would result in a lot of borrowed characters or subtle nods to my literary inspirations. As far as what herumor said I will agree to a certain extent and on occasion I do enjoy some sap. Like I said tho it has to be well written, I don't like stuff thats just layed on way to thick and cliched, but if its smartly written I can enjoy it.
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Post by mari on Dec 19, 2008 14:39:34 GMT -5
-- readers: when you review, what do you usually want to tell the author? (and, if you want to share, why?) At first of course there all the things I liked, things character said, plot points, cool, little details. And I guess that would be completely enough, but then this kind of self-centred need to comprehend things kicks in – which ends in long ramblings trying to figure out why I liked some quote or part or development, trying to find out why it worked so well.. And then there’s the even less directly necessary level, when things remind me of something else or give me some rather random impression. (And that’s where I wonder most whether to inflict it on people ) At what point does 'constructive' criticism become more 'destructive' than 'constructive?' I guess when it becomes more about the reviewer than the writer / story, not trying to be helpful with the criticism and not considering the feelings of the writer. In the extreme case when the reviewer takes the review to prove that he/she thinks of her interpretation of the fandom, her opinions as superior. But then… this is a point that depends so much on subjective preferences, how a person understands criticism, the no-voice, no-mimics tone of only-written reviews… And for grammar and spelling: I firmly believe that grammar and spelling are important and do matter and it makes me stop reading if it’s too bad… but I also know that the majority of people is way less pedantic and just like in RL I wouldn’t point out things like that even I was qualified to do soin English. On the other hand, I with my mistake phobia and embarrassment wouldn't mind people doing so with me (in a friendly tone of course). Actually, when I put up unbetaed snippets or such I usually ask people to point out mistakes (which nobody does so I wonder if they think it’s only a phrase or too much mistakes to bother ) I particularly liked a scene in Shy's "Asylum" With a (deceptively) simple description by an outside observer, we get a glimpse at the apparent destruction of their domestic life, their pain and sorrow, but also their unflagging love and devotion to each other...(did i mention that i REALLY, REALLY liked that particular scene?) . Oh yes, so agree, one of my favourites. It’s one of the single scenes that stand out in a story and get stuck in my brain in an atmospheric photo way (like when you look at a photo and remember the feeling, sensory impression of it, if that makes any sense ). In addition to what you mentioned... for me it was the density of all the details playing together to make that intense impression, Butler waiting there in the nature, outside of Max and Logan’s circle and the feeling of that. The best writers make an amazing job of balancing this elements, in a seamless, utterly believable story: That said, while i might enjoy a fluffy, romantic story just for fluff's sake, i need more substance in my reading. Yes, yes, yes! The fluff needs a context, reasons, development, a story around it – or if it’s only a short moment, it needs the right atmosphere, gestures etc. around it to make it stay with me. Shy, your ‘(w)riters’ wordplay, please, maybe? (<- Embarrassed smiley) Like in rite? (Sorry, I’m sure it’s something very obvious, just words that I don’t understand make me itchy )
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Post by shywriter on Dec 19, 2008 17:25:49 GMT -5
oh! one fast reply before I run off to see about weekend prep... Shy, your ‘(w)riters’ wordplay, please, maybe? (<- Embarrassed smiley) Like in rite? (Sorry, I’m sure it’s something very obvious, just words that I don’t understand make me itchy ) Heh ... dumb attempt at some alliterative titling... since all three words are pronounded with an "r" start, but one spelled with a "w," I was taking out the w, in a way... an old catch-phrase in US English, from an old song, referred to "reading and writing and 'rithmetic," another 3-r set of pronunciations, which was sounding though my head at the time, too. (see? pretty dopey.)
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Post by mari on Dec 19, 2008 18:57:37 GMT -5
alliterative titling... since all three words are pronounded with an "r" start, but one spelled with a "w," I was taking out the w, in a way... an old catch-phrase in US English, from an old song, referred to "reading and writing and 'rithmetic," another 3-r set of pronunciations, which was sounding though my head at the time, too. Of course, makes perfect sense. Simple and logic. Sorry, missing the obvious as usual. (And as usual blaming my pronunciation difficulties ;D) Thank you!
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Post by shywriter on Dec 20, 2008 2:57:18 GMT -5
Of course, makes perfect sense. Simple and logic. Sorry, missing the obvious as usual. (And as usual blaming my pronunciation difficulties ;D) Thank you! Sometimes those things make no sense when you're only reading along and not "sounding out" the words as you read...
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Post by shywriter on Dec 20, 2008 3:03:20 GMT -5
Love all the discussion!! Keep 'em coming! Wanting desperately to join in the discussion NOW but have been up for 21 hours and will make no sense... will chime in tomorrow but thanks for the great input & such nice comments about Asylum! Definitely not ignoring all the discussion, just losing consciousness...
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Herumor
Devoted Fan
I'm wracked by guilt...
Posts: 209
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Post by Herumor on Dec 20, 2008 8:20:20 GMT -5
Oh yes, so agree, one of my favourites. It’s one of the single scenes that stand out in a story and get stuck in my brain in an atmospheric photo way (like when you look at a photo and remember the feeling, sensory impression of it, if that makes any sense ). Ooh, nice phrase, i might steal it sometime ;D. And yes, it does make sense! there you go being all self-conscious again... ;D
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Post by mari on Dec 23, 2008 15:11:13 GMT -5
And adding another question to Shy’s list: Does anyone else have the tendencies to find really good stories / parts more difficult to review than just an average nice one? Probably just the result of my endless over-analyzing, but it’s easy just to say “I loved this” but for whichever over-thinking reason I have this silly need to add the “because…”, figuring out what exactly it was that I liked, why and how and what was the general feeling of it. (Not well explained at all, sorry ) So anybody else with the general impression that the better / vivid, believable characters / realistic / complex / fascinating the story, the harder it is to explain why you liked it? (And the longer the attempts at explaining / the review? )
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Post by Mr.Clark on Dec 23, 2008 21:18:49 GMT -5
For me its very easy to find out why I like something. I'm not a creative type, my skill is in analysis, always something I've been good at studying things figuring out how they work why they work well or don't.
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Post by shywriter on Dec 23, 2008 22:13:04 GMT -5
And adding another question to Shy’s list: Does anyone else have the tendencies to find really good stories / parts more difficult to review than just an average nice one? Probably just the result of my endless over-analyzing, but it’s easy just to say “I loved this” but for whichever over-thinking reason I have this silly need to add the “because…”, figuring out what exactly it was that I liked, why and how and what was the general feeling of it. (Not well explained at all, sorry ) So anybody else with the general impression that the better / vivid, believable characters / realistic / complex / fascinating the story, the harder it is to explain why you liked it? (And the longer the attempts at explaining / the review? ) When something really bowls me over with how it's done -- maybe a really gorgeous image, or something really powerfully written -- it's hard to find terms for explaining why that image or scene was so moving. Those are frustrating reviews because I feel as if I can't express enough how well done it was, and that's combined with a strong urge to try to express why it was so effective. But other than that, the better is it, the more there is to compliment! What about the opposite situation? When you want to be encouraging and find something to compliment, to encourage the author's effort -- but try as you might, there really isn't much to compliment -- how hard do you work to find something to say? So you give up? Does it depend on who is writing? For me its very easy to find out why I like something. I'm not a creative type, my skill is in analysis, always something I've been good at studying things figuring out how they work why they work well or don't. What about your analysis of something well done that you don't like? As we have established (I think) a lot of what works & what doesn't for any individual reader involves their subjective taste regarding what they like generally. So, taking what you said before about mooshy fic -- some moosh may be written extraordinarily well, but doesn't work for you, since you don't care for a lot of moosh. It doesn't mean that moosh can't work well -- just that it won't do much for you. Is your ability to analyze compromised when you don't care for a certain style or type of fic?
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Post by shywriter on Dec 23, 2008 22:22:40 GMT -5
Yea I don't do crossovers, sorry. You too? What is it with people not liking crossovers? I realize they can be badly abused (jamming together 2 universes that just won't work together). But since each cross-over could be so different from the next, depending on the universes/fandoms crossed, the author, and all the other fic aspects that could be involved in any particular crossover, aren't you missing a lot by just avoiding all crossovers? Isn't it like saying you're going to avoid all AUs? or all S2? (and yes, I realize there are those who avoid those wide categories as well, and I suspect they miss just as much, given there are enormous differences from one AU to the next, and a lot of differences in S2 fic, depending on the writer's orientation, etc.)
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